Path: ...!Xl.tags.giganews.com!local-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 01:40:28 +0000 From: steve Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Subject: Re: Google Groups ending support for Usenet References: <868r5vt80v.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87jzpdx4e7.fsf@clsnet.nl> Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 21:40:28 -0400 Message-ID: <87fru1qttf.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:hCw03yLirP1qMCxXGT4Z92GVgdg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lines: 60 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-dtmwxBeF9Zyr6IbcsBr4GP1tBlkDSjKKCiTcum56C9z0HeX7QncLr3CI5XP+68x7+v7WqhMV32LltnN!H610HzG2gU8DHTRf9dalCmDsGJtc3+ZNZuuXjjwf6I5XRg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 3024 "B. Pym" writes: > On 12/16/2023, cor@clsnet.nl wrote: > < > Any marginally usable programming language approaches an ill < > defined barely usable re-implementation of half of common-lisp > > Paul Graham: > > I consider Loop one of the worst flaws in CL, and an example > to be borne in mind by both macro writers and language designers. > > > [In "ANSI Common Lisp", Graham makes the following comments:] > < > The loop macro was originally designed to help inexperienced < > Lisp users write iterative code. Instead of writing Lisp code, < > you express your program in a form meant to resemble English, < > and this is then translated into Lisp. Unfortunately, loop is < > more like English than its designers ever intended: you can < > use it in simple cases without quite understanding how it < > works, but to understand it in the abstract is almost < > impossible. Not so! loop was to rid ourselves of DO... < > .... < > the ANSI standard does not really give a formal specification < > of its behavior. < > .... < > The first thing one notices about the loop macro is that it < > has syntax. A loop expression contains not subexpressions but < > clauses. The clauses are not delimited by parentheses; < > instead, each kind has a distinct syntax. In that, loop < > resembles traditional Algol-like languages. But the other < > distinctive feature of loop, which makes it as unlike Algol as < > Lisp, is that the order in which things happen is only < > loosely related to the order in which the clauses occur. not so... < > .... < > For such reasons, the use of loop cannot be recommended. Grahm was always a schemer at heart. He like currect continuation so much he practically rewrote lisp to scheme. Grahm also uses poor names for his functions. he is like a pascal programmeer :) We all know Norvig is the greatest lisp author on earth ;)