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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- key error
 in all the proofs --- Mike
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:51 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 8/12/24 1:32 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/12/2024 12:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 8/12/24 12:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2024 11:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/12/2024 11:10 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/12/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/12/2024 10:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/12/24 9:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/12/2024 8:04 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/12/24 8:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 12:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/24 8:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 10:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 9:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 8:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 7:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 5:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 6:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 3:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 4:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I have countlessly proven it only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requires enough correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated steps to correctly infer that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input would never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach is "return" instruction halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that HHH does't do that, since if HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides to abort and return, then the DDD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it is emulating WILL return, just after 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH has stopped its emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just confuse the behavior of DDD with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PARTIAL emulation that HHH does, because you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lie about your false "tautology".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denying a tautology seems to make you a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liar. I only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say "seems to" because I know that I am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claiming a false statement is a tautology 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only make you a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case, you lie is that the HHH that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about do the "correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation" you base you claim on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is just a deception like the devil uses, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has just a hint of truth, but the core is a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I say is provably correct on the basis of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86 language says DDD will Halt if HHH(DDD) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is called by main() there is no directly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> executed DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any where in the whole computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except in your requirements, and we can see what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it does by adding a call to DDD from main, since 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing in your system calls main.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that you need to know is that there is not any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly executed DDD() anywhere in the computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But there ccould be, and the behavior of it is what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key error of the halting problem proofs all of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years has been the false assumption that a halt decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must report on the behavior of the computation that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is contained within.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it isn't a false assemption, but an actual 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Halt Decider must be able to correctly answer for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY Turing Machine represented as its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY includes those that are built from a copy of itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, a Halt Decider needs to be able to correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer about programs that include copies of itself, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even with contrary behavior, which is what makes it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to compute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to confuse non-computable with invalid, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems in part because you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference between knowledge and truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has simply assumed that the behavior of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to a decider must exactly match the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this input. They only did this because everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejected
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation out-of-hand without review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because that is the DEFINITION of what it is to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just don't understand what a requirement is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the DEFINITION of "Correct Simulation" that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are trying to use (from a UTM) means a machine the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY reproduces the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exectution of the machine described by the input, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation must exactly match the behavior of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't get out of it by trying to lie about it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This caused them to never notice that the input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to its correct semantics does call its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation thus cannot possibly return 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller. The Linz proof is sufficiently isomorphic so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applies to the Linz TM proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, just shows you don't know what "Correct" means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your proof is NOT "sufficiently isomorphic" since by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your own claims it is clearly not even Turing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complete, so no where near isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If HHH were to report on the direct execution of DDD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would
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