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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 21:05:53 -0500
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On 3/10/2024 8:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/10/24 6:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so that Ĥ.H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same objective criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make sure that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they themselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite execution. This 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly otherwise halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in recursive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same objective criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within Ĥ and H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stipulated to use the exact same OBJECTIVE 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what criteria that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on who the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject is. They are objective. The answer to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different people is the same answer if the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criteria are objective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input thus never runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot possibly get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So wrong that a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dead monkey could do better. Write the Olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine (not x86utm) code for Ĥ and I would show you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just something you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop doesn't halt. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You see how stupid it is, to say that an infinite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loop halts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ BECAUSE IT IS 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS B AND C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input is left out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> runs out of params*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even know what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This means that Turing machine H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can see one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trace of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ than its simulated Turing machine Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ can see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, your just being stuupid, perhaps intentionally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) just moves around to its simulation of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) H^.q0 (H^)
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