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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Incorrect questions and halt deciders --Liars?--
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 16:43:10 -0500
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On 3/14/2024 4:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/14/24 12:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/14/2024 11:41 AM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 14/03/24 06:03, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/24 9:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 8:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 10:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 6:35 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 7:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> For any program H that might determine whether programs
>>>>>>>>>>>> halt, a "pathological" program D, called with some input,
>>>>>>>>>>>> can pass its own source and its input to H and then
>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically do the opposite of what H predicts D will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> No H can exist that handles this case.
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but the correct answer for the question given to H exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from
>>>>>>>>>> (a) Specific TM: H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>> (b) Specific unmarried_man to stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When you ask a man that has never been married:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating your wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which is a different issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never married men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all unmarried men.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Invalid, because it asks about a non-existant person.
>>>>>>>>>> and a non-existent halt decider H
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, because it presumes facts that are not true.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from
>>>>>>>>>> (a) Specific TM: H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which s a lying comment since nothing in the question asks for 
>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from the specific TM/input pair H(D,D) to 
>>>>>>>> Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which isn't the mapping the question asks about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same question exists in a hierarchy of generality to specificity.
>>>>>> There is a mapping from    D(D) to Halts(D,D).
>>>>>> There is a mapping from H1(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>
>>>>> YOU ARE JUST BEING STUPID.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Question, Does the Computation Described by your inpt (in this 
>>>>> case D(D) ) halt when run does NOT ask about a mappig from anything 
>>>>> OTHER than D(D) to Halts (D,D)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is simply a degree of detail that you choose to ignore.
>>>> There is a mapping from H1(D,D) to Halts(D,D)==1
>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)???
>>>>
>>>>> H1(D,D) or H(D,D) are NOT "more specific" thatn D(D) when asking 
>>>>> about D(D)
>>>>>
>>>>> And you are just a stupid pathological liar for saying so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where on earth do you get that H1 or H are in ANY WAY a "stand-in" 
>>>>> for the behavior of the input they are trying to decide on.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are the thing being TESTED.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are just showing your TOTAL and UTTER STUPIDITY here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be mre like what decider gets the Halting Question 
>>>>>>> right the pathological input?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not, Does the input Halt when run?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at the wrong question and of course you get the wrong answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And repeatedly doing that is just another form of DECEPTION and 
>>>>>>> LYING.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The QUESTION ask for the mapping of D D -> {Halting, Non-Halting}
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anything else is just a LIE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> isomorphic to
>>>>>>>> mapping from specific_unmarried_man to stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The question ask for the mapping from D,D to Halts(D,D), which 
>>>>>>>>> exists.
>>>>>>>>> Remeber, the question is, and only is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is not the question that H(D,D) is being asked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, you continue to lie about that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess you are just incurably stupid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you still remember the question of the Halting Problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> THE REAL ONE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The same as the specific_unmarried_man
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The logical law of polar questions
>>>>>>>> Feb 20, 2015, 11:38:48 AM  sci.lang
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When posed to a man whom has never been married,
>>>>>>>> the question: Have you stopped beating your wife?
>>>>>>>> Is an incorrect polar question because neither yes nor
>>>>>>>> no is a correct answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does the Machine and Input described by the input Halt when run.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus, H only gets ivolved when we are CHECKING the answer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (b) Specific unmarried_man to stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (a) and (b) are isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only in that H doesn't exist, as oesn't the man's wife.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are both YES/NO questions lacking a correct YES/NO answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some TM/input pairs to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But the question isn't mapping H/D, it is mapping the Machine 
>>>>>>>>>>> described by the input (and its input) to if it reaches a 
>>>>>>>>>>> final state, which has 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That <is> one half of the mapping.
>>>>>>>>>> To be isomorphic
>>>>>>>>>> mapping from specific_unmarried_man to 
>>>>>>>>>> stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>> we must have mapping from specific TM: H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is just a Red Herring, because we are NOT asking about 
>>>>>>>>> what H does, but about what its input represents and what H 
>>>>>>>>> needs to do to be correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> an answer, depend on the specifics of the problem, that 
>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have specifed before you could ever actually ask 
>>>>>>>>>>> the question.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You are just LYING about what the question actually is.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It now seems to me that you never were lying.
>>>>>>>>>> The philosophical foundation of these things is very difficult.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is when you and others ridiculously disagreed with the dead
>>>>>>>>>> obvious totally verified facts of the actual behavior behavior
>>>>>>>>>> of H1(D,D) and H(D,D) that gave me sufficient reason to conclude
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