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From: Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: CONTRARY EVIDENCE (WASRe: Evide)nce!
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 21:24:07 -0700
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On 3/21/24 12:25 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
> Mark Isaak wrote:
>> On 3/20/24 10:12 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>> Mark Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 3/19/24 9:13 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>> Mark Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/17/24 4:25 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>  > [...]
>>>>>>> The most vexing problem I have with evolution is the dogma of a 
>>>>>>> blind, random, unguided process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you will feel better, then, knowing that every 
>>>>>> evolutionist also has a vexing problem with evolution as a dogma 
>>>>>> of a blind, random, unguided process.  (In their case, the 
>>>>>> vexation typically comes from knowing that other people mistake 
>>>>>> evolution for that.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm an engineer. In engineering we never see this, there no 
>>>>>>> chance that a complex program can undergo random changes without 
>>>>>>> dire consequence. There might possibly be on rare occasion where 
>>>>>>> an unguided change might have no effect. Engineering starts out 
>>>>>>> with an objective or goal,  so must evolution. If there's no 
>>>>>>> goal, then what distinguishes a beneficial mutation from a bad 
>>>>>>> mutation. Survival one might say? But no! offspring with bad 
>>>>>>> mutations can do frequently survive, protected by the mother. And 
>>>>>>> they can have offspring; only the worst die out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your "I'm an engineer" comment sounds like an ecologist 
>>>>>> specializing in whale migrations glancing at a paper on fern 
>>>>>> genetics and commenting, "I'm a biologist. In biology we never see 
>>>>>> this."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a few years to study evolution algorithms.  There is an 
>>>>>> entire field of engineering dedicated to the study and utilization 
>>>>>> of what you say does not exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The members that usually survival depends largely upon luck, 
>>>>>>> surviving to adulthood without being eaten by other beast while 
>>>>>>> at rest or asleep at night and living long enough to reproduce is 
>>>>>>> real. The fittest is in reality survival of the luckiest. In 
>>>>>>> other cases massive numbers of eggs are laid. Sea turtles for 
>>>>>>> example, lay eggs by thousands and they hatch and rush forwards 
>>>>>>> into the sea, except for the large numbers that become food for 
>>>>>>> birds and other animals. Another consideration is the fact that 
>>>>>>> each cell has it's own DNA proofreading and repair systems, a 
>>>>>>> defective cell can repair itself or it is destroyed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another vexing issue for me is the will to survive. In the case 
>>>>>>> of the turtles, it's as if they _know_ they are in danger, and 
>>>>>>> seek the protection of the sea. How do the know. Instinct where 
>>>>>>> did instinct come from. Going back the first living cell. What 
>>>>>>> was the impetuous of dead inorganic chemicals to created a living 
>>>>>>> cell. Did the first living cell have the will to survive? Where 
>>>>>>> did this will come from?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you thought of publishing your doubts in a scientific venue? 
>>>>>> Probably not, maybe because if you have an ounce of sense you 
>>>>>> would realize that your points have been raised and satisfactorily 
>>>>>> answered long ago, probably within a couple months of when 
>>>>>> _Origins_ was published.  But more likely because your unshakeable 
>>>>>> conviction that everyone who disagrees with you is a dogmatist 
>>>>>> makes you think it doesn't matter to you what the scientists say 
>>>>>> in any case.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You just pass over everything without any explanation. You cannot 
>>>>> fault the implied message, so what do you do: you shoot the 
>>>>> messenger. Which is about the only thing I ever get from you!
>>>>
>>>> You have shown repeatedly that you have no interest in answers to 
>>>> your challenges, so why should I waste my time?  If you really want 
>>>> answers, prove it.
>>>  >
>>> I do respond to answers, but the answers, but all to often what I 
>>> see, is something like, "it's been explained to you over and over 
>>> repeatedly and you just ignore. Or go to a library for the answer. Or 
>>> finally someone will give an opinion without proof.
>>
>> Like you responded to my pointing out the engineering field of 
>> evolutionary algorithms?
>>
> I'm sorry I don't have the time to read or to respond to every post 
> directed to me. I still have to earn my salary.
>   I don't know what you are asking for. I understand that the _concept_ 
> of evolution or evolutionary algorithms has been used in computer 
> programming(s) leading in the direction of Artificial Intelligence AI. 
> There are so many fields of engineering, so no one can know about 
> everything or everything about anything. Few things change and advances 
> as rapidly as certain fields of engineering, especially electronics.

And that software is undergoing random change without drastic 
consequences. In fact, that is how it improves.

-- 
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell