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Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Ernest Major <{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: IS A NEW THEORY OF EVOLUTION NEEDED? Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:55:45 +0000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 37 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <uu4av2$3nmc4$1@dont-email.me> References: <R2EMN.130835$GX69.74962@fx46.iad> <9ce9c6464050d3a6c6887b2d4075bbe9@www.novabbs.com> <weqcnSwox-XZ0Zn7nZ2dnZfqlJ-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <6e795dbd46e15b8731f943dae6b9416e@www.novabbs.com> <uC2dnZOg3-XfIpn7nZ2dnZfqlJ-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <b4875c400dc041b28ecabc20150b7553@www.novabbs.com> <cpWdndNh9Mddfpn7nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> Reply-To: {$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="62179"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:wKEgJ1NpkYShhd7cW6n+b/HVfAQ= Return-Path: <news@eternal-september.org> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 47DFA22976C; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 13:52:04 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A1A229758 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 13:52:02 -0400 (EDT) id 9065E7D121; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:55:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay.zaccari.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722227D009 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:55:49 +0000 (UTC) id B2A89DC01A9; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 18:55:46 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:55:46 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+oVGmIXp0jrKOj5sw448Czh2T99vxQXbFYJhVMoDHg37wIiiheYIQMpkNQuxyR8IPlgn7xGMsmgA== Content-Language: en-GB In-Reply-To: <cpWdndNh9Mddfpn7nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> Bytes: 4153 On 28/03/2024 03:28, John Harshman wrote: >> Going back to the real issue though, I'm not sure it's quite what they >> mean >> with niche construction - at least the way I understand them - because >> there is no feedback loop from the effect that the bear has on its >> environment and subsequent selection pressures. IIRC the example we >> got in school were beavers: they are adapted for semi-aquatic life, >> AND create more >> semi-aquatic environments through their building activity which then >> again acts >> on the beaver and increases the pressure on those less well adapted >> etc. Or humans. -NS is different in an environment with hospitals than >> one without >> > I had viewed the term as less restrictive, such that any alteration of > behavior in turn altering the selective environment experienced by the > organism would count. Darwin leaves open the question of whether change > in phenotype or of behavior comes first, but he also suggests mutual > feedback between the two. My notion was that it's not the physical > environment that counts but the environment as experienced by the > organism. Thus a change of food source could count. That would certainly > increase the impact of niche construction on evolution and greatly > increase the number of examples, which would otherwise be fairly few. Evolution has a number of feedback loops - between species (arms races), between the two sexes of a species (sexual selection), between organisms and the environment (niche construction), ... It'd be nice to operationalise our understanding of these processes, but I doubt that rises to a new theory of evolution. 25 years ago chaos was a hot topic, and Kauffman's research program had hopes of bringing self-organisation into the centre of evolutionary theory. That, if successful, would have, I think, been a bigger change. -- alias Ernest Major