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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does V3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:10:02 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 4/27/24 1:51 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/27/2024 12:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/27/24 10:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2024 6:45 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 4/27/24 1:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/2024 10:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 11:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   D(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That H(D,D) must report on the behavior of its caller is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one that is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What H(D,D) must report is independet of what procedure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (if any)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus when H(D,D) correctly reports that its input D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach its own line 6 and halt no matter what H does then H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can abort its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input and report that its input D(D) does not halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But since the program D(D) DOES reach its own line 6 when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> run, because H aborts its simulation and return 0 (since 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is what you say this H will do), your statement is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROVEN TO BE A LIE, and you "logic" just a collection of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradictions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 thus 
>>>>>>>>>>>> when we do
>>>>>>>>>>>> not use the strawman deception to refer to a different D 
>>>>>>>>>>>> then we know
>>>>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H never halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the D(D) executed in main does halt is none 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of H's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business because H is not allowed to report on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, H doesn't need to report on the Behavior of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Program described by its input because it isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually a Halt Decider, because you are just a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone knowing the theory of computation knows that H is not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> allowed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> report on the behavior of its caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, an
>>>>>>>>>>>> undecidable problem is a decision problem for which it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> proved to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to construct an algorithm that always leads to a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct yes-
>>>>>>>>>>>> or-no answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior of the simulated D(D) before H aborts its 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is
>>>>>>>>>>>> different than the behavior of the executed D(D) after H has 
>>>>>>>>>>>> aborted
>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every time that a simulated input would never stop running 
>>>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>>>> aborted the simulating termination analyzer must abort this 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent its own infinite execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) is a case of this H1(D,D) is not a case of this even 
>>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only difference between H and H1 is that D calls H and D 
>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>> not call H1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H would never stop running unless aborted and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its own line 06 and halt no matter what H does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus whenever we do not use the strawman deception to refer 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> different D we know that D simulated by H specifies a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting
>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of configurations to H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *This might be a more succinct way of summing that up*
>>>>>>>>>>> When you understand that D simulated by H cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 (thus cannot possibly halt) no 
>>>>>>>>>>> matter what H does and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But since H does whatever H does, if H aborts and returns 0, 
>>>>>>>>>> the the direct execution of D, which is what actually matters, 
>>>>>>>>>> DOES get to that point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is another much less useful way to make a universally correct
>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> int H(ptr x, ptr y)
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>    printf("The input program does whatever it does!\n");
>>>>>>>>>    return 777; // code for it does what it does
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that doesn't make H answer the question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess you don't understand what I am saying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You said "no matter what H does", but that is a MEANINGLESS 
>>>>>>>> statement, because H will do what H is programmed to do, so we 
>>>>>>>> don't need to look at other behavior, but just the behavior that 
>>>>>>>> H ac
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It can be verified through ordinary software engineering that D(D)
>>>>>>>>> simulated H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but that is just a lying RED HERRING, as the question isn't 
>>>>>>>> about what H's simulation of the input does, but what the 
>>>>>>>> program the input actually represents does when run.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> YOu are just effectively admitting that you are nothing but a 
>>>>>>>> stupid liar that doesn't know what he is talking about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It can be verified through computer science that this means 
>>>>>>>>> that D(D) simulated H by never reaches its own final state and 
>>>>>>>>> halts whether
>>>>>>>>> H aborts its simulation or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, since this H DOES abort its simulation is trying to 
>>>>>>>> introduce a red herring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
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