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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Olcott doesn't know the difference between an element an the set
Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 22:17:12 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/10/24 7:39 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/10/2024 5:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/10/24 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/10/2024 4:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 5/10/24 5:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/10/2024 4:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/10/24 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 1:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system: 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm enables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one C function to execute another C 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function in debug step mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating Termination analyzer H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates the x86 machine code of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input (using libx86emu) in debug step mode 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until it correctly matches a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct non-halting behavior pattern 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proving that its input will never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop running unless aborted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D correctly simulated by H terminate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Execution Trace*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) that simulates D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Simulation invariant*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above execution trace proves that (for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every H/D pair of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the H that this D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls cannot possibly reach past its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "every H/D pair" you should 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify which set of pairs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about. As you don't, your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words don't mean anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every H/D pair in the universe where D(D) is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This involves 1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to ∞ steps of D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and also includes zero to ∞ recursive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulations where H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates itself simulating D(D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In the universe" is not a set. In typical 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set theories like ZFC there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no universal set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of finite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string H/D pairs where each D(D) that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H(D,D) also calls this same H(D,D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the one to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ simulated steps of D and involve zero to ∞ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulations of H simulating itself 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating D(D). Every time Lines 1,2,3 are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated again defines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one more level of recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st element of H/D pairs 1 step  of D  is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the first recursive simulation at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 01
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next step of the first recursive simulation at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 02
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last step of the first recursive simulation at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 03
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the second recursive simulation at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 01
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this the definition of the infinite set of H? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can think of many more simulations that only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of finite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string H/D pairs where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this same H(D,D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No-one can possibly show one element of this set 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where D(D) reaches
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is a decider of any kind then the D build 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it reaches its line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of D by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H reaches that line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is another question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My fully operational code proves otherwise*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I seems like you guys don't have a clue about how 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursion works. You can run the code and see that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am correct.
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