Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: No decider is allowed to report on the behavior of the computation that itself is contained within Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 21:52:56 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 112 Message-ID: References: <0f7ed34c-5aaa-4858-885e-66e16777f599n@googlegroups.com> <87a6a44s02.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <87sfnv2e6e.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <3a337f21-4828-46c4-b5be-87c76cff9db4n@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 04:52:57 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="ba728845a682305e7e13b3854d529db3"; logging-data="1663271"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18Bdv9PCjZYSi/wdrHLIuau" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:nG5T1dXQgS+qJcfsMJvCrtUHTPQ= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 5947 On 5/22/2024 9:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 5/22/24 10:33 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/22/2024 9:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 5/22/24 10:07 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 5/22/2024 6:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 5/22/24 5:19 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 6/24/2022 2:53 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote: >>>>>>> He's dry-run P(P) and established that it doesn't halt. He's >>>>>>> invoked H on it >>>>>>> and H reports that it doesn't halt. He's run P(P) and it halts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So something odd is going on there that needs an explanation. >>>>>> >>>>>> *MUCH BETTER WORDS THAN ONE YEAR AGO* >>>>>> *MUCH BETTER WORDS THAN ONE YEAR AGO* >>>>>> *MUCH BETTER WORDS THAN ONE YEAR AGO* >>>>>> >>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C >>>>>> 00       int H(ptr p, ptr i); >>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p) >>>>>> 02       { >>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p); >>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status) >>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status; >>>>>> 07       } >>>>>> 08 >>>>>> 09       int main() >>>>>> 10       { >>>>>> 11         H(D,D); >>>>>> 12         return 0; >>>>>> 13       } >>>>>> >>>>>> In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly >>>>>> emulates >>>>>> at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified >>>>>> by the >>>>>> x86 instructions of D. >>>>>> >>>>>> This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in the >>>>>> order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling H(D,D) in >>>>>> recursive simulation. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is trivial to see that for every H/D pair of the infinite >>>>>> set of H/D pairs that match the above template that >>>>>> >>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own final >>>>>> state at line 06 and halt because D correctly simulated by >>>>>> H remains stuck in recursive simulation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deciders are only accountable for the behavior of their inputs >>>>>> and are thus not allowed to report on the behavior of the computation >>>>>> that they themselves are contained within. >>>>> >>>>> No. "Behavior of their inputss" MEANS for Turing Machines that are >>>>> computing properties of Turing Machines (like Halt Deciders) have >>>>> the "behavior of their input" defined as the Behavior of the >>>>> machine their input represents/describes/specifies. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Only specifies and no matter how many times you deny it, >>>> it remains a verified fact that: >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> the input to H >>>> specifies that it never reaches its own final state and halts. >>> >>> No since when the input is run, >> >> *That has nothing to do with* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> *The behavior that the input to H specifies* >> > > Sure it does. > > What else does the question: Does the program described to the decider > halt mean other than that? *That is the FREAKING WRONG QUESTION* *NO ONE KNEW THAT IS WAS THE WRONG QUESTION* *ONLY BECAUSE EVERYONE REJECTED A SIMULATING* *TERMINATION ANALYZER OUT-OF-HAND WITHOUT REVIEW* D of every H/D pair where D is correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach is own line 06 and halt. The failure to provide a counter-example will be construed as proof of this. -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer