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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How Partial Simulations correctly determine non-halting ---Ben's
 10/2022 analysis
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:08:49 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 6/9/24 12:18 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/9/2024 10:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-09 13:53:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 6/9/2024 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-06-08 12:52:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/8/2024 1:36 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-06-07 17:11:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/7/2024 11:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-07 14:47:35 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2024 1:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-06 15:31:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/6/2024 10:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-06 13:53:58 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/6/2024 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-05 13:29:28 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/5/2024 2:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-04 18:02:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *HOW PARTIAL SIMULATIONS CORRECTLY DETERMINE NON-HALTING*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/13/2022 11:29:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MIT Professor Michael Sipser agreed this verbatim 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paragraph is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (He has neither reviewed nor agreed to anything else in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Professor Sipser agreed>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input D until H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly determines that its simulated D would never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop running
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that D specifies a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> </Professor Sipser agreed>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is quite clear what Professor Sipser agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those were my verbatim words that he agreed to, no one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has ever correctly provided any alternative interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that could possibly make my own HH(DD,DD)==0 incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can agree with those words because they are both clear 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether they are sufficient to your purposes is another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is nor relevant to their acceptablility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you use those words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the second last part of your proof then it sould be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to look at the other parts in order to find an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> error in the proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is slightly more than zero supporting reasoning yet 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mere gibberish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when construed as any rebuttal to this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who disagree with you about whether something is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "gibberish" may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that you are stupid. You probably don't want them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regardless whether thinking so would be right or wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This unequivocally proves the behavior of DD correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HH*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://liarparadox.org/DD_correctly_simulated_by_HH_is_Proven.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would anyone construe my words as any rebuttal to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that? That pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely claims that a partucuar author (a C program) proves 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, the second of which is badly formed (because of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verbs it is hard to parse and consequently hard to be sure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent meaning or apparent lack of meaning is what is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I will dumb it down for you some more*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you knwo that "dumb it down" does not mean 'change the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> topic'?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try any show how this DD can be correctly simulated by any HH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such that this DD reaches past its machine address [00001dbe]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e12] 55         push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e13] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e15] 51         push ecx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e16] 8b4508     mov  eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e19] 50         push eax      ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e1a] 8b4d08     mov  ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e1d] 51         push ecx      ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001e1e] e85ff5ffff call 00001382 ; call HH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *That meets this criteria*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't if you mean the criteria implied by the subject 
>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it does mean that when we ourselves detect the repeating
>>>>>>>>>>> state of DD correctly simulated by HH does meet the first part
>>>>>>>>>>> of the following criteria:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What does your "first part" mean? There is more than one way to
>>>>>>>>>> partition the criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     If simulating halt decider HH correctly simulates its input DD
>>>>>>>>>     until HH correctly determines that its simulated DD would 
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>     stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is all of the criteria, so should not be called "first part".
>>>>>>>> Atually Sipser only agreed about H and D, not about HH and DD but
>>>>>>>> that does not make any difference for the above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor Sipser knew full well that H and D are mere
>>>>>>> placeholders for simulating halt decider H with arbitrary input D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, as nothing more is specified in the agreed text. But his 
>>>>>> expressed
>>>>>> agreement does not extend to any substition of those placeholders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It allows substitution of any simulating halt decider for H
>>>>> and any finite string input for D. If you are going to lie
>>>>> about this I am going to quit looking at what you say.
>>>>
>>>> Sipser clearly said that his agreement does not extend to any
>>>> substitutions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Those I my verbatim words that he agreed with and I said no such thing.
>>
>> What did you not say?
>>
> 
> AGREEMENT DOES EXTEND TO SUBSTITUTIONS OTHERWISE
> X > 5 proves that X > 3 only applies when X is 8
> 
> I don't see how anyone can say that it does not apply
> to substitutions without flat out lying.
> 

It just shows you like to serve Herring with Red Sauce.

That arguement is just a dishonet deflection because you had no other 
idea of haw to respond.