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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ?
 --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:29:48 -0500
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On 7/23/2024 2:14 AM,   wrote:
> On 2024-07-22 14:13:33 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 7/22/2024 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-21 13:50:17 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:38 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:28:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:39:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/19/2024 3:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You apparently mean that no HHHᵢ can simulate the corresponding 
>>>>>>>>> DDDᵢ to
>>>>>>>>> its termination?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No I don't mean that at all that incorrectly allocates the error
>>>>>>>> to the emulator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway you did not say that some HHHᵢ can simulate the 
>>>>>>> corresponding DDDᵢ
>>>>>>> to its termination. And each DDDᵢ does terminate, whether 
>>>>>>> simulated or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Until you quit lying about this we cannot have an honest dialog*
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that you can have a honest dialog, at least not 
>>>>> without
>>>>> a chairman who wants to and can keep the dialog honest.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> void DDD()
>>>> {
>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>    return;
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> When N steps of DDD are emulated by pure function HHH according
>>>> to the semantics of the x86 language then N steps are emulated 
>>>> correctly.
>>>>
>>>> The subscripts to HHH and DDD pairs are each element of
>>>> the set of positive integers ℤ+
>>>>
>>>> When we examine the infinite set of every HHH/DDD pair
>>>> such that:
>>>>
>>>> HHH₁ one step of DDD₁ is correctly emulated by HHH₁.
>>>> HHH₂ two steps of DDD₂ are correctly emulated by HHH₂.
>>>> HHH₃ three steps of DDD₃ are correctly emulated by HHH₃.
>>>> ...
>>>> HHHₙ n steps of DDDₙ are correctly emulated by HHHₙ.
>>>>
>>>> Then DDD correctly simulated by any pure function HHH cannot
>>>> possibly reach its own return instruction and halt, therefore
>>>> every HHH is correct to reject its DDD as non-halting.
>>>
>>> That does not follow. It is never correct to reject a halting 
>>> comoputation
>>> as non-halting.
>>>
>>
>> In each of the above instances DDD never reaches its return
>> instruction and halts. This proves that HHH is correct to
>> report that its DDD never halts.
> 
> The same reasoning "proves" that HHH called by DDD does not return
> and therefore HHH is not decider. But the "proof" is not sound.
> 

HHH(DDD) does halt. Some of the data that HHH simulates
is not required to halt.

>>
>> When every element of an infinite set of the DDD of HHH/DDD
>> pairs never halt (all black cats are black) then HHH can
>> report that its DDD never halts (all black cats are cats).
>>
>> Most people here seems intentionally ridiculously stupid when
>> it comes to hypothetical scenarios:
>>
>> _DDD()
>> [00002163] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>> [00002164] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>> [00002166] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD
>> [0000216b] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD)
>> [00002170] 83c404     add esp,+04
>> [00002173] 5d         pop ebp
>> [00002174] c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002174]
>>
>> A correct simulation is defined as emulating the x86 instructions
>> of DDD according to the semantics specified by these instructions.
>> This includes emulating HHH emulating DDD according to the semantics
>> of the x86 instructions of HHH.
>>
>> Within the hypothetical scenario where DDD is correctly emulated
>> by its HHH and this HHH never aborts its simulation neither DDD
>> nor HHH ever stops running.
>>
>> This conclusively proves that HHH is required to abort the
>> simulation of its corresponding DDD as required by the design
>> spec that every partial halt decider must halt and is otherwise
>> not any kind of decider at all.
>>
>> That HHH is required to abort its simulation of DDD conclusively
>> proves that this DDD never halts.
> 
> That DDD halts is conclusively proven by a direct excution or DDD.
> 


Yes and by the same (faulty) reasoning if you saw Bill's identical
twin brother Jim rob a liquor store and you knew it was Jim and not
Bill this proves that Bill robbed the liquor store.

DDD correctly simulated by HHH is in the different process
state of needing to be aborted or run forever than the directly
executed DDD() that is not in this same process state and will
not run forever.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer