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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Science has a news article up about "living fossils" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 06:44:41 -0700 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 45 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <yr2dnSQUUo3UwW34nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> References: <uso3e0$3sddr$1@dont-email.me> <5uudnTnDGosMDnL4nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> <uspc19$84nb$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="42072"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: <poster@giganews.com> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id D5B2122976C; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:41:15 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC35229758 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT) id 77A565DCE2; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 13:44:43 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay-1.kamens.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701025DCBE for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 13:44:43 +0000 (UTC) by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CB661153 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 13:44:42 +0000 (UTC) by serv-3.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA3F44069F for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 08:44:42 -0500 (CDT) by serv-3.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 42CDifem082401; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 08:44:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-3.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 13:44:41 +0000 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <uspc19$84nb$1@dont-email.me> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 5038 On 3/12/24 3:50 AM, Ernest Major wrote: > On 11/03/2024 23:28, John Harshman wrote: >> On 3/11/24 4:17 PM, RonO wrote: >>> https://www.science.org/content/article/these-gars-are-ultimate-living-fossils >>> >>> Open access article: >>> https://academic.oup.com/evolut/advance-article/doi/10.1093/evolut/qpae028/7615529?login=false >>> >>> These researchers looked at Gar, but it also applies to sturgeons. >>> These two bony fish lineages seem to have a very slow rate of >>> molecular evolution. The changes in their DNA accumulate so slowly >>> that two lineages separated for over 100 million years can still form >>> fertile hybrids. 3 million years is pushing it for species like >>> lions and tigers that can still form hybrids, but the hybrids are >>> sterile. Bonobos and chimps are around 3 million years divergent and >>> can still form fertile hybrids, but the claim is that these fish >>> evolve orders of magnitude more slowly than mammals. >>> >>> The Science news article claims that mammals accumulate 0.02 >>> mutations per site per million years, while these fish averaged only >>> 0.00009 mutations per million years. For the 1100 coding exons that >>> they looked at for this study these fish evolve much more slowly than >>> mammals. >>> >>> The news article notes that other "living fossils" such as >>> coelacanths (0.0005) evolve faster, but slower than amphibians >>> (0.007). It sounds like terrestrial animals evolve faster than fish. >> >> If it's repair mechanisms they hypothesize as the cause of slow >> evolution, they really should be looking at junk sequences rather than >> just 4-fold degenerate sites. I suggest introns. And if the introns >> aren't alignable, well, that kills the theory right there. >> > > Tree species thought to be separated by tens of millions of years are > known to hybridise. For example Platanus orientalis and Platanus > occidentalis, and also with Tilia, Quercus and Aesculus. In the case of > Tilia I suspect that multiple rounds of introgression has served to > limit the amount of divergence between species. However Tilia does > appear as a short branch in cladograms, supporting the hypothesis that > forest trees have a lower rate of evolution. > Then again, ducks that are thought to be separated by tens of millions of years are also known to hybridize, and their rate of evolution isn't particularly slow.