Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!.POSTED.chiark.greenend.org.uk!not-for-mail From: Pamela Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated Subject: Re: UK Involvement in War Crimes Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:25:50 +0100 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Approved: uk.legal.moderated approval key Message-ID: References: Injection-Info: chiark.greenend.org.uk; posting-host="chiark.greenend.org.uk:212.13.197.229"; logging-data="6110"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@chiark.greenend.org.uk" User-Agent: Xnews/2009.05.01 Cancel-Lock: sha1:Hf10v9QKZTCYNAYuFP7zKNyub+0= X-Moderation: [169831596510945] See https://uklegal.weebly.com/ Received-SPF: pass (mailhub-hex-d.mythic-beasts.com: domain of eternal-september.org designates 2a01:238:4322:f100:97c6:a04c:74ee:429e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a01:238:4322:f100:97c6:a04c:74ee:429e; envelope-from=news@eternal-september.org; helo=smtp.eternal-september.org; X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/3sX1jioORYF9NDYCesWlNc+HSOFpE+g2tNCahjWuG/A== X-Mythic-Source-External: YES X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 20 X-BlackCat-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk X-Mythic-Originator: uid-1081-on-lynx.mythic-beasts.com X-STUMP-Warning-0: Unfolded headers Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: X-Auth: PGPMoose V2.0 PGP uk.legal.moderated iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEfWu6wfyjzX88oocanSrwpvmn4x4FAmU6p8sACgkQnSrwpvmn 4x5r0gf7BF4COyIfHY0sJSyU28CS7fHbC6Y50iuLoC2v/cQAQvW0656fOP1SZaAG dP7o19AyHi4OtY0LUcbeMhb3cCy4p04VYRe5ovpjIBL96eGEpFNWHReVoQREBhjw +evqOvGZ9dpX4H30xhgkmSVQoVB3ZPQuWyxb2gbyS19ltTqEvoaLtKVHJhgyq3HH A64ecA3b5njoorGM8EwCyxPHSsSBNYiF4eUf8traVPxcFyCQs7IvrJJBAArVsmjR Jyr8qVwlfbakmXzeBurdbdA+E7FY6cZNkRBOF4wTOOaLYNSPkoi+Eo7uU8HSq7AV RnOIaV4ypjD7vkXOikihWQFQXs1CyQ== =CuRY Originator: webstump@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229]) Bytes: 4290 Lines: 43 On 09:06 26 Oct 2023, Roger Hayter said: > On 25 Oct 2023 at 19:09:54 BST, "Pamela" > wrote: >> >> A theoretical question could be raised today about recent events: >> would it have been justified to interrogate a member of Hamas using >> all the methods available if it were to have led to the prevention >> of the recent massacre in Israel? > > That facile and ill-founded[1] question is usually asked in the > theoretical situation that you have one villain who knows where the > time-bomb is. In your general case, that you have to torture tens of > thousands (many of whom will not be correctly identified as Hamas > members) over decades to find out when an unpredicted attack will be, > the answer is clearly no. > > [1] Ill-founded in the sense that it is well known that severe enough > torture merely gets you answer you want, rather than any kind of > truth. You may have assumed military interrogation is primarily physical torture. However the most effective interrogation is psychological and that is largely what is practised as it overcomes the subject's wish to lie. In another post I mentioned the German, Hanns Scharff's approach. There are public statements by the American Psychological Association (David Hoffman et al) and the British Psychological Society (Peter Kinderman) showing their reluctance to be drawn into using such psychological methods to help the military. The aim is to get the detainee to vounteer the information. Purely psychological techniques were covered in the old US's "School of the Americas" underground training manuals, which in turn were based on work by Albert Biderman and Robert Lifton who separately investigated how the Chinese had managed to break captives solely by psychological methods. For a country fearing a second 9/11, the US felt it was justified in using extreme methods, such as at Guantanamo, to prevent a recurrence. I regret you find such a situation to be "facile".