Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!.POSTED.chiark.greenend.org.uk!not-for-mail From: "billy bookcase" Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Genocide ? What Genocide ? There's Nothing to see here Move On Please (was Re: Indigenous population numbers in N America (was Re: Hamas) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:25:50 -0000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Approved: uk.legal.moderated approval key Message-ID: References: Injection-Info: chiark.greenend.org.uk; posting-host="chiark.greenend.org.uk:212.13.197.229"; logging-data="31502"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@chiark.greenend.org.uk" Cancel-Lock: sha1:cOMTUdep6v6s3TxKSL+cLevNW14= X-Moderation: [170393915631372] See https://uklegal.weebly.com/ Received-SPF: pass (mailhub-cam-d.mythic-beasts.com: domain of eternal-september.org designates 2a01:238:4322:f100:97c6:a04c:74ee:429e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a01:238:4322:f100:97c6:a04c:74ee:429e; envelope-from=news@eternal-september.org; helo=smtp.eternal-september.org; Authentication-Results: name/E6C0A760409; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=anon.com Authentication-Results: name; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=eternal-september.org X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+Bngfoporp4VAF0nWdDWA9eJotua/bbfBqV7dMbteOSg== X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-Mythic-Source-External: YES X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 36 X-BlackCat-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk X-Mythic-Originator: uid-1081-on-lynx.mythic-beasts.com X-STUMP-Warning-0: Unfolded headers Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: X-Auth: PGPMoose V2.0 PGP uk.legal.moderated iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEfWu6wfyjzX88oocanSrwpvmn4x4FAmWQDFUACgkQnSrwpvmn 4x74cQf/cL91N4Ph/mgAvuszWkkl5Ov1lCGmgR/S8McRqFpJ3SNi37IhIGbD8HxL +cfXZdhUVjt9Nq/U1PRY1pF/DNkKVf5FGBhMFCt3T1i02euRBqvBVyGfH24Xp5Vn 6pSTLv+mAvfM8RHXYcYwqfj8QAmetJQBg0XpZs76aKcVnSdn5QGcLsLxgZsThzbh UnkZMIgagcEWTr1CDPWZDTUyCo5pscrHYRawVsFZVFsGCNbxtgeI7c61D1NV0zRZ 4W/gid+JBAuP0HxVblfFXI4PBHgG/v1/IWtOFYJ/Taew29aEfgHYY/XmrCIKguxG MqZ9z/l2jE8QKygV07mDRn7kW6sa0g== =/6x+ Originator: webstump@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229]) Bytes: 13000 Lines: 268 "Pamela" wrote in message news:XnsB0E9CA64956E15D4AM2@135.181.20.170... > On 19:36 29 Dec 2023, billy bookcase said: >> "Vir Campestris" wrote in message >> news:ummtuq$svun$2@dont-email.me... >>> >>> Just because you think genocide includes stealing their land >>> and destroying their culture doesn't make it so. >> >> But its not just what *I think though, is it ? >> >> Now let's see >> >> quote: >> When Native Americans Were Slaughtered in the Name of 'Civilization' >> Below, some of the most aggressive acts of genocide taken against >> Indigenous Americans: >>:unquote >> >> https://www.history.com/news/native-americans-genocide-united-states >> >> quote: >> >> American Genocide: The Crimes of Native American Boarding Schools >> Embarks on a Quest for Truth and Healing "This is an entry point. >> We hope all Americans start to learn not only the true history of >> what happened, but what can be done today," cohost Crystal Echo Hawk >> says of the six-episode podcast. >> >>:unquote >> https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2023/05/american-genocide-the- >> crimes-of-native-american-boarding-schools-truth-and-healing >> >> quote: >> The United States Must Reckon With Its Own Genocides >>:unquote >> >> https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/11/us-genocide-china- >> indigenous-peoples-day-columbus/ >> >>:quote: >> Immigration and Relocation in U.S. History >> Native American >> These dislocations and changes took place across many centuries, and >> each individual episode was marked by its own set of unique >> circumstances, from public negotiations and careful planning to >> subterfuge and deceit; from declarations of friendship to calls for >> genocide >> unquote >> >> https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/immigration/native-american/ >> >>> But I repeat my original assertion - there is no clear evidence that >>> the native north American population is any lower now than it was >>> before Columbus. >> >> The figures are disputed, and for fairly obvious reasons. >> >>> You method says that if a region has a population, and a large >>> number of immigrants move in reducing the _percentage_ of the natives >>> then it is genocide. >> >> But they didn't just "move in", did they ? That's the whole point ! >> In Utah >> >> quote >> The Battle at Fort Utah (also known as the Provo River Massacre,[2] or >> Fort Utah Massacre[3]) was a violent attack in 1850 in which 90 Mormon >> militiamen surrounded an encampment of Timpanogos families on the >> Provo River one winter morning,[4]:?114? and laid siege for two days, >> eventually shooting between 40 and 100 Native American men and one >> woman with guns and a cannon during the attack as well as during the >> pursuit and capture of the two groups that fled the last night.[4] >> [...] >> Young was also concerned that losing Fort Utah would disrupt his >> plans to settle other fertile valleys and have a route to California. >> [19] He ordered an extermination campaign against the Timpanogos, >> with orders to kill all the Timpanogos men, but to spare the women >> and children if they behaved.[20][11]:?394?[21][22] General Wells >> drafted the extermination order as Special Order No. 2 and sent >> them to Captain George D. Grant.[16]:?224? In his letter, he told >> Grant "Take no hostile Indians as prisoners" and "let none escape >> but do the work up clean".[23]: >> unquote: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah >> >> A nice touch there don't you think ? "spare the women and children if >> they behaved" >> >> So that's what separated the US Cavalry from the SS. The US Cavalry >> were under orders to only murder women and children if they >> misbehaved. >> >> War crimes ? What war crimes ? >> >> Now let's see how some more of your immigrants behaved, >> this time in California >> >> quote >> The Round Valley Settler Massacres of 1856-1859 were a series of >> massacres committed by early white settlers of California with >> cooperation and funding from the government of California and the >> support of prominent Californians against the Yuki people of Round >> Valley, Mendocino County, California. More than 1,000 Yuki are >> estimated to have been killed; many others were enslaved and only 300 >> survived. The intent of the massacres was to exterminate the Yuki and >> gain control of the land they inhabited. >> unquote >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_Valley_Settler_Massacres_of_ >> 1856_-_1859 >> >> California again >> >> quote: >>!n 1859, a band of locally sponsored rangers led by Walter S. Jarboe, >> called the Eel River Rangers, raided the countryside in an effort to >> remove the natives from settler territory and move them onto the Nome >> Cult Farm, an area near the Mendocino Indian Reservation. By the time >> the Eel River Rangers were disbanded in 1860, Jarboe and his men had >> killed 283 warriors, captured 292, killed countless women and >> children, and only suffered 5 casualties themselves in just 23 >> engagements. The bill to the state for the rangers' services amounted >> to $11,143.43. >>:unquote >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendocino_War >> >> Nice Freudian Slip there - remove the "natives" (i.e. the >> people who actually belong there ) from "settler" territory >> >>> Deliberately spreading smallpox and other diseases may well >>> count as attempted genocide. >> >> While a seeming obsession with disease may offer a convenient >> smokescreen for apologists, it doesn't actually cut that much ice; >> certainly as compared with actual examples of deliberate attempts at >> extermination as described above. Only 3 of many it maybe goes without >> saying. >> >>> The fact that there are large numbers of people of European ancestry >>> in the USA does not affect it. >> >> So who exactly was it who were shooting all the Native Americans (see >> above) >> >>> Of course quite a few of those Europeans fled there to escape another >>> genocide... >> >> And that is relevant, how exactly ? >> >> bb > > Thank you for examples of misuse of the term "genocide". Unfortunately for some reason you appear to be totally unfamiliar with provisions b,c,and e, of article II of the Genocide Convention of 1948. Which would appear to be especially applicable in this instance Quote: ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========