Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: The Golden Ratio Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 14:08:24 +0100 Organization: De Ster Lines: 145 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <1qqkayi.c0n6bbk4qaedN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> References: <1qq1l89.63rl4suykdp3N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qq1xwl.3hfpplyykf1gN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <5sfkuihmuln05ms4v74t94vghg7ea838en@4ax.com> <1qqcz55.1qqd56hjjrzm2N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qqdp3r.1imvbi8hv0qfgN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qqfaj6.17qs3etaet95yN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qqhb2l.xd6nbmg89yfjN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <64ef1ad5-e8ac-42ef-823e-f9d4ff461299@gmail.com> Reply-To: jjlax32@xs4all.nl (J. J. Lodder) Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="32605"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.8.5 (ea919cf118) (Mac OS 10.12.6) To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:N8Vhh+TJJcmSJbU0m48U7Grr3/s= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 6694522976C; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:04:56 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4411E229758 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:04:54 -0400 (EDT) id A08B55DCC9; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 13:08:30 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay-1.kamens.us (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804C35DC6E for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 13:08:30 +0000 (UTC) id CCF0ADC01CA; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 14:08:25 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX19m/7j74cu6cGpf5yt3buohyME5sTxIH3Fwsq0yGv4HNw== Bytes: 7961 erik simpson wrote: > On 3/16/24 1:49 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote: > > Bob Casanova wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 19:21:00 +0100, the following appeared > >> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. > >> Lodder): > >> > >>> Bob Casanova wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:58:30 +0100, the following appeared > >>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. > >>>> Lodder): > >>>> > >>>>> Bob Casanova wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:39:38 +0100, the following appeared > >>>>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. > >>>>>> Lodder): > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 2024-03-07 22:31:27 +0000, Bob Casanova said: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 17:51:40 GMT, the following appeared in > >>>>>>>>> talk.origins, posted by dgb (David) > >>>>>>>>> : > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 17:41:02 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" wrote > > : > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> dgb wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 09:38:23 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" wro > > te: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalkidas wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dgb (David) Wrote in message:r > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this occur by accident?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol > > den > >>> _ra > >>>>> tio > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or by design? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It will never be known. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing to know there, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The thing to know, Jan, is that it hasn't all happened by accide > > nt! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It hasn't happened at all. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> You are, of course, mistaken. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Wrong. Nothing "happened"; the so-called Golden Ratio, like > >>>>>>>>> all mathematical relationships which describe observed > >>>>>>>>> phenomena, is a property of physical > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mathematical > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> reality, no more. And, > >>>>>>>>> of course, no less. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You are wasting your breath. Bob is an incurable materialist, > >>>>>>> incapable of abstraction and idealisation, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> Ummm, I didn't say that there are no parts of math which are > >>>>>> abstract, only that all math relationships WHICH DESCRIBE > >>>>>> PHYSICAL PHENOMENA are properties of those phenomena. > >>>>> > >>>>> So the integers are a property of your football scores? > >>>>> "No more, and no less", like you say, > >>>>> > >>>> Overgeneralizations and "football scores" aside... > >>>> > >>>> If I understand you, the mathematical relationships which > >>>> describe observed physical relationships do *not* describe > >>>> those relationships? > >>> > >>> Mathematical relationships are mathematical. > >>> They have nothing to do with any reality at all. > >>> > >> Whatever you say, Jan; math has no relationship, descriptive > >> or otherwise, to reality. Got it. > > > > Good to see that you finally got it. > > You may move up one level in the cave, > > and forget about beating the chalk out of those blackboard erasers, > > > > Jan > > > I just went back and read wigner's excellent essay on"Unreasonable > Effectiveness of Mathematics", which I'd never read before. I love his > last paragraph > > "Let me end on a more cheerful note. The miracle of the appropriateness > of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of > physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We > should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future > research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our > pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches > of learning." > > It's a gift that's tricky. The Lamb shift, the positron were > "predicted" by the math, but to make the electric and magnetic fields of > classical electrodynamics symmetrical, we'd need a "magnetron". No such > beast. Even without that chimera, time advanced potentials as solutions > are unphysical, but the proposed reasons are uneasy. Particularly > applying this to quantum electrodynamics has (I think) not yet been > explained. Wigner wrote at would I would call a 'Lord Kelvin moment'. As you know, Kelvin wrote at the end of the 19th century that all problems in physics had been solved, except for two 'little black clouds on the horizon'. And indeed, mathematical physics, to which he had contributed so much, had been succesful beyond expectations. The 'small black clouds' on Kelvin's horizon were tackled almost at once, by Planck and Einstein, with two major scientific revolutions as a result, and a whole century of new physics. Wigner likewise stood at such a high point. Quantum field theory was being unreasonably succesful, the extraordinary accuracy to ten decimal places or so hadn't been foreseen by anyone, and the remaining problems (weak and strong interactions) looked like they would be wrapped up soon in the same way. There were only two small black clouds on the horizon... (quantum gravity and explaining those dimensionless numbers) Wigner has been less lucky. The 'black clouds on his horizon' have expanded to fill the whole sky, they have only grown blacker, and there is no solution in sight. So we get plenty of books about 'The Crisis in Physics' instead, Jan