Path: ...!npeer.as286.net!npeer-ng0.as286.net!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: The Last Doctor Newsgroups: rec.arts.drwho Subject: Re: From the Archives ..... Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 14:08:46 -0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 94 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 16:08:47 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="0fe65e20407a7170cf163a2c55ce5f8f"; logging-data="3899003"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+kBnMkbRPUJDkChFogpNrt" User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+6x+icfbk9ytfC9yu7Wqw40Fges= sha1:nLJZcCM408B8EqLioVyjZDSYFdE= Bytes: 6049 The Doctor wrote: > In article , > The Last Doctor wrote: >> The Doctor wrote: >>> In article , >>> The True Doctor wrote: >>>> On 19/04/2024 13:13, Daniel70 wrote: >>>>> Tonight's post from the past concerns Regeneration Limits, a topic that >>>>> has been close to the Hearts of some here-abouts, recently!! >>>>> >>>>> Quote from 'Olton' in the 'Favourite Dr Who' thread of June 1991 >>>>> In "Nightmare of Eden," the Doctor says something about timelords having >>>>> 125 lives, and that he had had about 190. This clearly doesn't "jive" >>>>> with other established facts, unless you want to think that he means >>>>> that their lifespan is 125 times the length of a human's. That's >>>>> possible, but the context that he uses it in implies 125 regenerations. >>>>> End Quote >>>>> >>>>> So it would seem that Chris Chibnall was not the first to suggest that >>>>> there had been many re-generations PRIOR to Hartnell (over and above the >>>>> "The Brain of Morbius" confusion). >>>>> >>>>> Discuss. >>>> >>>> The Deadly Assassin which was 3 series earlier firmly establishes a >>>> limit of 12 regenerations and that is repeated by both the Doctor and >>>> the Master in The Keeper of Traken, the 4th Doctor's penultimate story. >>>> >>>> Maybe he was talking about going undercover 190 times or on 190 >>>> different planets or different historical periods. >>>> >>> >>> Good facts AGA! >> >> Facts? Facts? (Not that I think there was any such discussion in Nightmare >> of Eden, but maybe my memory of that is faulty. Or maybe it’s another of >> those novelisation inventions like the nonsense Aggie loves from >> Underworld.) >> >> But wait - Aggie is saying that Deadly Assassin predates Nightmare of Eden >> therefore the 12 regeneration limit is absolute. >> >> But Brain of Morbius came before that, and on screen showed 11 faces of the >> Doctor prior to Tom Baker’s. Therefore using Aggie’s logic, Peter Davison >> was the 13th and final Doctor and when he says “Feels different this time” >> he is dying. Doctor Who ended with Caves of Androzani in March 1984 and >> every episode since has been a fever dream of the dying Doctor. >> >> (I am of course not taking account of the retcon in the novelisation that >> suggests the 8 unknown faces are those of Morbius. Morbius is clearly >> winning the mind duel and it is the Doctor who is being pushed back, and >> this was Philip Hinchcliffe’s intent). >> >> Unless, of course, we go back further to The War Games, when the Doctor >> reveals that his people can “live forever, barring accidents”. But perhaps >> that can be construed as suggesting that Time Lords who do not suffer >> twelve fatal accidents never reach their thirteenth and final incarnations. >> >> Which explains the need for the Matrix - millions of years of memories >> couldn’t possibly all be retained in one mind, so some sort of external >> augmentation and storage would be very much needed. >> >> But of course the idea that there had been earlier Doctors didn’t originate >> with Morbius. >> >> Whitaker's draft scripts (for The Power Of The Daleks) revealed that the >> Doctor had been “renewed” before; he was to open a drawer in the console >> which contained relics from his previous incarnations, including an earring >> and a metal bracelet (which in the 60s would have suggested that at least >> one previous Doctor had been female). The scripts also specified the >> Doctor's age as 750 years, included various references to his grandchild >> Susan -- whose present location the Doctor could no longer recall -- and >> hinted that it might have been the Daleks who had destroyed his homeworld. >> All this material was cut in Dennis Spooner’s rewrites for time - much >> additional background was removed to fit the very complex story and >> introduction of the new Doctor into six episodes. >> >> Then we move forward again to the 80s and The Five Doctors, where the >> Master reveals that he has been offered a whole new cycle of regenerations. >> So the limit of 12 was never absolute, and the Master’s whole motivation >> for The Deadly Assassin is negated. >> >> In short, a rigid insistence on a specific canon is pointless when it comes >> to Doctor Who. And paying any attention to Aggie, who insists on repeating >> his delusions about the show as “facts”, is a sure sign of a very limited >> intellect. So know you know why Dave says what he says. >> > > You seem to be skewered MM! > I have absolutely no idea what you think you mean by that Dave. -- “The timelines and … canon … are rupturing” - the Doctor