Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in recursive simulation? Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 18:18:08 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 22:18:09 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="2076346"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 In-Reply-To: Bytes: 7434 Lines: 140 On 5/24/24 5:37 PM, olcott wrote: > On 5/24/2024 4:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 5/24/24 4:03 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 5/24/2024 12:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 5/24/24 1:06 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 5/24/2024 5:46 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>> Op 24.mei.2024 om 03:44 schreef Richard Damon: >>>>>>> On 5/23/24 1:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C >>>>>>>> 00       int H(ptr p, ptr i); >>>>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p) >>>>>>>> 02       { >>>>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p); >>>>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>> 07       } >>>>>>>> 08 >>>>>>>> 09       int main() >>>>>>>> 10       { >>>>>>>> 11         H(D,D); >>>>>>>> 12         return 0; >>>>>>>> 13       } >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The above template refers to an infinite set of H/D pairs where >>>>>>>> D is >>>>>>>> correctly simulated by pure function H. This was done because many >>>>>>>> reviewers used the shell game ploy to endlessly switch which H/D >>>>>>>> pair >>>>>>>> was being referred to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Correct Simulation Defined* >>>>>>>>     This is provided because every reviewer had a different >>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>     correct simulation that diverges from this notion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>     A simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly emulates at >>>>>>>> least one >>>>>>>>     of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified by the x86 >>>>>>>>     instructions of D. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>     This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of >>>>>>>> H in >>>>>>>>     the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus >>>>>>>> calling H(D,D) >>>>>>>>     in recursive simulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Execution Trace* >>>>>>>>     Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); H(D,D) simulates lines 01, >>>>>>>> 02, and 03 >>>>>>>>     of D. This invokes H(D,D) again to repeat the process in >>>>>>>> endless >>>>>>>>     recursive simulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Questions: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By your definiton of "Correct Simulation", you do realize that >>>>>>> you have broken connection between the simulaiton not completing >>>>>>> and the program described by the input not halting? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, you do realize that by your requirement on H just being a >>>>>>> "pure function" that does NOT say that you H qualified to be the >>>>>>> computational equivalent for a Turing Machine? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That due to your "strange" definition of what D is, you are >>>>>>> putting yourself outside of the grounds of "Computation Theory", >>>>>>> as that deals with the behavior of specific PROGRAMS, and not the >>>>>>> "Program Templates" like your D, our the "Infinite set of H/D >>>>>>> pairs"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, your "templagte D" is NOT built per either the Linz or >>>>>>> Sipser rules, as both of those had D built with a COPY of H, >>>>>>> which is one of your problems with a "Pure Function" as the >>>>>>> equivelent. You have shown that your H fails to meet the >>>>>>> requirements of a Turing Machine equivalent, as you can't (or it >>>>>>> seems you can't) make equivalent copies, where all copies always >>>>>>> give the same answer for the same inputs. This is a fundamental >>>>>>> property of Turing Machines, which is why just bing a "Pure >>>>>>> Function" isn't good enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These issus need to be handled or acknowledged, before agreement >>>>>>> on your question, as you have shown a history of taking a >>>>>>> statement and twisting it (perhaps not intentionally, but because >>>>>>> you don't understand what was being communicated) so we need to >>>>>>> have a firm understand of what you mean and evidence that you >>>>>>> accept the limititation causes by your altered definitions from >>>>>>> the problem that you initially claimed to have started on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, it also means that even if/when you get your >>>>>>> agreement, you are no closer to your halting proof, as you have >>>>>>> shown that you undestand that you conditions actually tell you >>>>>>> NOTHING about the actual behavior of halting. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If olcott wants to be closer to the Linz or Sipser rules, he could >>>>>> do so with a small modification: use different names for H. Use H1 >>>>>> when called by main and use H2 when called by D. H1 and H2 are not >>>>>> required to be exact copies of each other, but only to be >>>>>> functionally equivalent. By doing so, a lot of useless discussions >>>>>> could be avoided. >>>>> >>>>> *That violates this* >>>>> For any program H that might determine whether programs halt, a >>>>> "pathological" program D, called with some input, can pass its own >>>>> source and its input to H and then specifically do the opposite of >>>>> what H predicts D will do. No H can exist that handles this case. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem >>>>> >>>> >>>> Nope, D, that pathological program, is supposed to be built with its >>>> own COPY of the decider, since to BE a program, it needs a complete >>>> source set. >>>> >>> >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> OFF-TOPIC OF THE SUBJECT LINE >>> >> >> Nope, part of confirmnig your requriements. > > ITS NOT IN THE SPEC THEREFORE ITS WRONG > So, do you admit that you definition of "Correct Simulation" fails to meet the requirements to show non-halting by the fact that it was aborted before it reached a final state, and that your H isn't the compuational eqivalent of a Turing Machine (so the results can't just be moved over) and that your input D isn't the equivalent of Linz's or Sipsers proof program? If not, we need to resolve the issue, Of course if you agree, then you have agreed that you have nothing for the next step.