Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Can D simulated by H terminate normally? Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 08:52:27 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 91 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 15:52:28 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5b5cf6fc6ad4bf43d1327b7299fd7236"; logging-data="1140760"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX192lKDkfBzjWAmgRKbpNClO" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:oWXda+z82qFYBcTOXDJDCr6/I4g= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 4568 On 4/28/2024 8:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 4/28/24 8:56 AM, olcott wrote: >> On 4/28/2024 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-04-28 00:17:48 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> Can D simulated by H terminate normally? >>> >>> One should not that "D simulated by H" is not the same as >>> "simulation of D by H". The message below seems to be more >>> about the latter than the former. In any case, it is more >>> about the properties of H than about the properties of D. >>> >> >> D specifies what is essentially infinite recursion to H. >> Several people agreed that D simulated by H cannot possibly >> reach past its own line 03 no matter what H does. > > Nope, it is only that if H fails to be a decider. > *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* We are only concerned with the behavior of a pair of C functions. Unless I require that reviewers proceed through every slight nuance of details of my reasoning they simply ignore my words and leap to the conclusion that I must be wrong. *It will be increasingly more clear that your rebuttals are baseless* *It will be increasingly more clear that your rebuttals are baseless* *It will be increasingly more clear that your rebuttals are baseless* > Since you claim H to be a decider, D can not have infinite recursion, > because H must return in finite time. > > Yes, we get two different, and contradictory, sets of results depending > on which facts we look at. The cause of this is the principle of > explosion, that somewhere in our setup we have a false premise, and that > turns out to be that there can exist an H that can correctly determine > the halting status of its input, or in particular, the input built by > this formula. > >> >>>> The x86utm operating system based on an open source x86 emulator. >>>> This system enables one C function to execute another C function >>>> in debug step mode. When H simulates D it creates a separate process >>>> context for D with its own memory, stack and virtual registers. H >>>> is able to simulate D simulating itself, thus the only limit to >>>> recursive simulations is RAM. >>>> >>>> // The following is written in C >>>> // >>>> 01 typedef int (*ptr)(); // pointer to int function >>>> 02 int H(ptr x, ptr y)    // uses x86 emulator to simulate its input >>>> 03 >>>> 04 int D(ptr x) >>>> 05 { >>>> 06   int Halt_Status = H(x, x); >>>> 07   if (Halt_Status) >>>> 08     HERE: goto HERE; >>>> 09   return Halt_Status; >>>> 10 } >>>> 11 >>>> 12 void main() >>>> 13 { >>>> 14   D(D); >>>> 15 } >>>> >>>> Execution Trace >>>> Line 14: main() invokes D(D) >>>> >>>> keeps repeating (unless aborted) >>>> Line 06: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D) >>>> >>>> Simulation invariant >>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 09. >>>> >>>> Is it dead obvious to everyone here when examining the execution >>>> trace of lines 14 and 06 above that D correctly simulated by H cannot >>>> possibly terminate normally by reaching its own line 09? >>> >>> >> > -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer