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From: Jos Boersema <Josjoha@market.socialism.nl>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Creation is very well made ! Humans cause all the trouble in it.
Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 14:55:07 -0000 (UTC)
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source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzZiIioIDG8
title: The Lubavitcher Rebbe's incredible answer 
link: JEM - The Lubavitcher Rebbe 

  Some thoughts on the issues raised, that's all ...  (By the way, I
  despise the idea that anyone would think of reading this in a sense
  that this claims to be any sort of 'authoritative' answer, or claim
  thereto. Thinking that is an accusation. It is merely a theory which
  I thought of as sensible, an invitation to talk about the topic, and
  that's all. If you think it terms of authoritative answers, just go
  away already, thanks. You probably are a completely illogical person
  with zero effort in thinking, everything is point blank impressions
  based on emotions. This is a bunch of arguments which you can rethink
  and agree or disagree with, or just read for the fun of it. Maybe you
  have some better insights after reading it, and you can post them and
  then I can read them again, etc. That is all.)

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.1.31 _And God saw all that had been made,
and found it very good. And there was evening and there was morning,
the sixth day._ (...) _when no shrub of the field was yet on earth and
no grasses of the field had yet sprouted, because God יהוה had not
sent rain upon the earth and there were no human beings to till the soil,_

It is quite obvious then, that God apparently said the Earth was well
created, at a time when the humans where not yet messing things up by
their own bad choices. Hence I conclude that, God knowing that this
was a possible future, that the system was perfect, because if the
human where to behave bad, they would end up suffering the pain they
cause themselves, which helps them correct their evils and mistakes,
or they can be wiped out in greater or lesser degree. Such a system is
perfect, isn't it. The humans then came later, and God also complains
about it going bad. Despite that, the system is still perfect, _because_
of the suffering. If there was no suffering, despite humans misbehaving,
the system would not work and not eventually end up with a worthwhile
humanity which can find happiness. Despite that though, the suffering as
such is sad, and also quite unnecessary, but that is what you get when
you break with the Torah, as the Jewish people have done, including
the Rabbis with their Hillel (prosbul) and their Rambam (heter iska),
and not demanding the institution of the jubilee on land (etc). You
caused your own suffering, and the suffering is your medicine, hence
all is perfect. Once you healed yourself, stop doing wrong, things will
be perfect in both ways: no suffering, and a perfect system which could
deal with people doing bad again as well.

The comparison with a building being build and the building site looking
chaotic and dangerous, also seems to be right. Humans where perhaps good
until they started to thieve and do violence (stole the 'soft fruit'
in the Garden of Eden ?), but that "building" collapsed and came to
ruin. This ruin then becomes like a job site for a new building, where the
humans are good again (which for the Jews include, to reject Hillel and
Rambam with their _service to the rich and greedy,_ and return to Moshe
Rabbeinu and the truth). For now things look bad to us, because people
suffer, but if they didn't suffer they have no reason at all to work
on themselves or do better. The chaotic and dangerous work site of the
new building, this is also perfect. The humans choose to do wrong, and
they suffer, but then they have the brains necessary to think about it,
and learn. If they don't want to learn, the suffering can become worse,
and eventually they can be annihilated if they refuse to become good,
and this makes room for people who perhaps do want to correct themselves
and become happy creatures.

The topic seems to change to 'moshiach' and a possible future of animal
sacrifices at a Temple. The way I personally would see such sacrifices,
is that it is meant perhaps chiefly or even exclusively, as a means for
those people and that society as a whole, to learn to give something
away. They have something of value, but they nullify it, they destroy it
or part of it. It is a component of the psychology of helping someone
else, with your time, with what you have. You sacrifice a bull to the
Temple, and the bull is lost to that society, the meat is gone. You
sacrifice a meal to a stranger, the food is lost. You donate a sum to a
far off country who has suffered a terrible natural disaster, the money
is lost. You may get back a _thank you_ and that might be all, and in some
cases the one who receives your help is ungrateful, or worse you happened
to give help to a bad person who looks down on you for giving away your
stuff. By doing the sacrifices on the Temple, you as it where learn to
get used to loosing something, to give it away. You may then turn around
to someone else, and help them easier, to sacrifice your time, energy,
goods, place, good advice, and all other things. When the sacrifice is
made at the Temple in Yerushalayim, this is the highest Sovereign level of
that society, which carries much impression and prestige from its people,
and all the individuals are impressed and inspired what happens there,
realizing that the highest powers in that society are the ones invested
in the events which happen there, especially if it is connected with the
de-facto Government over the Nation, and/or the Supreme Court of Justice,
and so on. The impression of sacrificing something, without any clear way
to be rewarded back for that, besides the gratitude of the one you gave
it to. Not as a trade, but as a gift which might never be repaid. HKB'H
might test his Nation then this way, that he does not in obvious ways
reward them (while already having provided the entirety of Creation for
us to live in, and that is a lot to thank Him for), so that the sense of
sacrifice deepens. Then at other times, HKB'H might ride out in war for
his Nation (back in the day at least), not unlike the poor and wretched
who received help from their Nation may feel inspired to defend their
Nation in war as well.

Anyway, I thought that the sacrifices might give people a sense and a
habit of giving away for nothing, out of goodness alone, and not just
scraps left over but as HKB'H asks: the best of your stuff you give, not
merely the scraps. Imagine a Nation of people willing to help each other
with the best of their stuff, the best of their time and energy. Such
a Nation would be ... perfect. Such a creation would be perfect. They
would have done it themselves, which makes it also their creation,
their responsibility, and their achievement, their lives, their loving
project. It is perfect. Creation is perfect. It is very well made !

We can also extend this to the gentiles and their idolatry, that in
their idolatry they also sacrificed, and at times this may have been
good for them as well, to learn to give away. At other times however,
some of the Nations have done the worst in the name of sacrifices,
committing to human sacrifices and all kinds of horrific evil. They used
sacrifices as a weapon of terror. Perhaps this was a corruption of an
original ideal, but I do not know if that is true.

I think this argument is not that bad, because if you think that Israel
used to sacrifice a bull for each of the 70 (root-) Nations (as this is
thought off in Judaism I guess), once you are sacrificing a bull every
so many times for the other Nations, for their well being and so on,
then if one of those Nations is hit by a disaster, you are already in a
stance of caring about them. It will be further from you to laugh at
their misfortune, and start scheming about how you can get rich off of
their suffering. You are more in the stance of: what else can we do for
these people, what do they need now ...

Isn't this how peace comes about, in the whole world ?

So the point becomes: the sacrifices are for the psychology of the
people making the sacrifices. Indeed like a cleansing of their soul, an
upgrade to their souls, just like it is said so many times that a
sacrafice was made in order to cleanse them from guilt, and so on. It is
not so much a sacrifice like a payment for a trade, where the one making
the sacrifice is buying some kind of good for himself (which you see
mostly with the idolatry Nations, who make sacrifices to get something
else out of it, like a trade, and less about them themselves cleaning
out their soul from bad behavior or guilt etc). For them it may have
been about superstition, but for Israel it may be about refining their
personal character, their psychology, their morality, their willingness
to sacrifice, to care for other people, even if you don't know them.

If you look at it this way, it is quite possible that sacrifices will
return in some way, because a need to learn to be generous still seems
to be a necessity. The greed in the world is still overwhelming and
destroying just about everything sooner or later.

There is also the element that a sacrifice specifically to the place
from there the Torah comes, is a political act of support for that
place, and in the eyes of others it gives prestige to that place, it
shows in the eyes of others that the place from where the Torah comes is
supported, loved and protected by the people making sacrifices to that
place, which impresses upon them a power and a respect (generally),
particularly when it is done by well behaved people. Even that you see
back in the Torah law, where the gains of lewd behavior may not be
sacrificed to the Temple, and all that is sacrificed must be of high
value, if not perfection.

Perhaps to modern thinking, critical of crazy idolatry religions,
sacrificing animals in a Temple in Yerushalayim seems crazy, and maybe
this critical attitude is quite correct, when it is aimed at the
many idolatry cults of the past. However, things may be different for
offerings to the Temple in Yerushalayim, if the Torah comes from that
place, and if you understand it as a means to improve your own
psychology by undergoing the loss of a sacrifice willingly, and not just
once but as a habbit, and not just for yourself but for others, and
other Nations (as above argued).

Then there is the "animals rights" issue, but sacrificing animals is the
same as butchering them for meat eating. The meat eating gives
sustenance to the body, while a sacrifice might give rise to a better
morality in some people, who suffer the loss willingly. In that sense,
it could be construed as being food for the soul.

It's a theory, that's all. I don't know if this is the truth. It seems
like a reasonable theory, however. Something rational which makes some
sense. That is all. When I see some arguments, then I have a thought or
two and look for a debate. Sadly, there are no people anymore who are
willing to debate the Torah. It just doesn't exist anymore. You can
follow some creed with an empty mind, you can follow some 'authority'
with an empty mind, or another supposed 'authority', and that is all
that seems to be left these days.

Usenet (and Reddit) are good examples of how degraded this culture is in
terms of debate. It is extremely rare to have any sort of useful or even
half interesting exchange of ideas. Essentially, it never happens.
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