Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: =?UTF-8?B?SCDin6jEpOKfqSDin6jEpOKfqSBpcyBjb3JyZWN0IHdoZW4gcmVwb3J0?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_on_the_actual_behavior_that_it_sees?= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 09:54:34 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 468 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 14:54:36 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1568d5e95fd7d0d459fb89959682569c"; logging-data="3864184"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX198fLlWcrtF/QsVP4WDMQrx" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:H9P6F0hE5I+VGGgSFIRYtHHflcA= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 24501 On 3/11/2024 5:45 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-03-11 04:38:40 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 3/10/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 3/10/24 8:33 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 3/10/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 3/10/24 7:05 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 3/10/24 6:00 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact same objective criteria that H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure that they themselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution. This means that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly otherwise halt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation when Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact same objective criteria that H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within Ĥ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and H is not* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is stipulated to use the exact same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OBJECTIVE criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what criteria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is used >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the subject is. They are objective. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer to different people is the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer if the criteria are objective. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input thus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get stuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input thus runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So wrong >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a dead monkey could do better. Write the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Olcott machine (not x86utm) code for Ĥ and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would show you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something you want to be true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt. You see how stupid it is, to say that an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite loop halts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transitions to Ĥ.H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ BECAUSE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IT IS PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS B AND C: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left out so* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs out of params* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what words mean? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Ĥ.H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========