Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Fred. Zwarts" Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Olcott is simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise --- pinned down Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2024 20:34:18 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 179 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2024 20:34:20 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="7b2dfb52a2545f32ded9b03629a80d37"; logging-data="3642419"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19lSMJ0tu4MrmMc65xJtMeU" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:J/bQGtOq46Qi8DWEVMDjDO5Y+44= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-GB Bytes: 8951 Op 02.jun.2024 om 19:59 schreef olcott: > On 6/2/2024 12:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 6/2/24 10:19 AM, olcott wrote: >>> On 6/2/2024 6:51 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 6/1/24 11:33 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 6/1/2024 6:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 6/1/24 7:12 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/1/2024 6:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/1/24 6:40 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Show me where I said anything in the above spec about an >>>>>>>>> aborted simulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, why did HH stop simulating after some n steps? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did it reach a final state in the simulation? if not, it ABORTED >>>>>>>> its simulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When every possible which way DD correctly simulated by HH >>>>>>>>> never reaches >>>>>>>>> past its own simulated line 03 then >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And a simulation either goes until it reaches a final state of >>>>>>>> the machine it is simulating, or it aborted its simulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C >>>>>>> 00       int HH(ptr p, ptr i); >>>>>>> 01       int DD(ptr p) >>>>>>> 02       { >>>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = HH(p, p); >>>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status; >>>>>>> 07       } >>>>>>> 08 >>>>>>> 09       int main() >>>>>>> 10       { >>>>>>> 11         HH(DD,DD); >>>>>>> 12         return 0; >>>>>>> 13       } >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When every DD correctly simulated by any HH cannot possibly reach >>>>>>> past its own simulated line 03 in 1 to ∞ steps of correct simulation >>>>>>> of DD by HH then we have exhaustively examined every possible HH/DD >>>>>>> pair and each element has of this infinite set has the same >>>>>>> property. >>>>>> >>>>>> So? >>>>>> >>>>>> It doesn't matter how many aborted simulaiton you do of a given >>>>>> input (and each HH simulated a DIFFERENT input since it simulated >>>>>> the INSTANCE of the template with a different HH) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In other words one cannot prove that every five pound rock weighs >>>>> more than every three pound rock, one must weigh them one-at-a-time? >>>> >>>> Nope. But you need to show that each rock IS a five pound rock. >>>> >>>> IF you weigh one rock, and find it is 5 pounds, doesn't mean that >>>> anothoer rock  rock that looks about the same is also 5 pouds, >>>> >>>> You do seem to like you Herring in Red sauce, don't you. >>>> >>>> The comparison here is that you have only "weighed" a very few of >>>> your DDs, only those built on an HH that NEVER aborts have been >>>> determined to not halt. The others are just >>>> haven't-yet-halted-after-n-steps, but we actually DO know that they >>>> WILL Halt after more. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The ONLY simulation that actually showed that ITS input was >>>>>> no-halting was the HH that never aborted, and it didn't answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Every other HH has a DIFFERENT INPUT and would be LYING to say it >>>>>> had that other input. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In other words (because each rock is different) one cannot prove >>>>> that every five pound rock weighs more than every three pound rock, >>>>> one must weigh them one-at-a-time? >>>> Nope, unless of course you still need to weight them to show they >>>> ARE 5 pound rocks. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Every HH/DD pair of the infinite of every possible HH/DD pair >>>>> DD correctly simulated by HH NEVER HALTS. >>>> >>>> That isn't even your original claim you were asking about. >>>> >>>> Your claim wasn't about "Halting" because that is easily disproven, >>>> but that there correct PARTIAL simulation done by H never reaches >>>> the statement after the call. >>>> >>>> You are just showing your true colors, that you just don't >>>> understand what you are talkinag about and get your lies confused. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *THIS PROVES THAT THE INPUT TO H(DD,DD) DOES NOT HALT* >>>>>>> *THIS PROVES THAT THE INPUT TO H(DD,DD) DOES NOT HALT* >>>>>>> *THIS PROVES THAT THE INPUT TO H(DD,DD) DOES NOT HALT* >>>>>> >>>>>> Nope. Aborted simulation don't prove anything. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When for each element of the infinite set of every HH/DD pair DD >>>>> correctly simulated by HH cannot get past its own simulated line 03 >>>>> then we know that none of the DD inputs to each HH(DD,DD) ever halts. >>>> >>>> >>>> Nope. Try to actually PROVE that. >>>> >>> >>> Semantic tautologies are self-evident truth that prove themselves. >>> It is a fact that every five pound rock weights more than any >>> three pound rock. No need to weigh any rocks. >> >> Right, so you don't need to weigh a five pound rock to know it is five >> bpounds. >> >>> >>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C >>> 00       int HH(ptr p, ptr i); >>> 01       int DD(ptr p) >>> 02       { >>> 03         int Halt_Status = HH(p, p); >>> 04         if (Halt_Status) >>> 05           HERE: goto HERE; >>> 06         return Halt_Status; >>> 07       } >>> 08 >>> 09       int main() >>> 10       { >>> 11         HH(DD,DD); >>> 12         return 0; >>> 13       } >>> >>> Likewise we correctly deduce that for every HH/DD pair of the >>> infinite set of all HH/DD pairs that match the above template >>> every DD correctly simulated by HH never reaches past its own >>> simulated line 03, thus never halts. >> > > When for every freaking HH/DD pair that matches the above template > DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly ever reaches past its > own simulated line 03 then Similarly: When for every freaking HH/DD pair that matches the above template HH correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly ever reaches its own return then we know with complete logical certainty that not a damn one of these HH instance halts. halts, NOT A DAMN ONE OF THEM EVER HALTS. > > we know with complete logical certainty that not a damn one of > these DD instance halts. halts, NOT A DAMN ONE OF THEM EVER HALTS. > ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========