Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ross Clark Newsgroups: sci.lang Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_This_must_be_Bulgarian_=28audiobook=3f=29_--_Russian_?= =?UTF-8?B?dGl0bGUgaXM6INCT0ZHQtNC10LvRjCwg0JXRiNC10YAsINCR0LDRhQ==?= Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 23:06:13 +1200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: r.clark@auckland.ac.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 13:06:21 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1742960b2072d5da89e293b80ff5c5f6"; logging-data="3528950"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX196xRdTAgLXp4Gd/J9zeoULvmn5Zkg/TzI=" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Cancel-Lock: sha1:L0ZH22yfhK3UBmw7sMimD05Ikw0= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-GB Bytes: 3644 On 19/05/2024 6:17 a.m., Christian Weisgerber wrote: > On 2024-05-18, Ross Clark wrote: > >> I'm remembering, without consulting any books, but I think there is no >> actual palatalization before (historic) a,o,u, as one might expect. >> The Russian я following palatalized consonant comes from the front nasal >> vowel *ę; > > There are other sources of я. Just looking at two feminines on -я: > неделя ‘week’ < PSl. *neděľa > заря ‘dawn, dusk’ < PSl. *zořa I don't doubt there are other sources. These two look to me as though they both have a *-ja suffix. My point was that the palatalization process which produced the largest number of palatalized C's in modern Russian applied only before front vowels. The palatalized C's before a-o-u have other origins. >> and unless I'm mistaken ю only represents /ju/ in native >> Slavic words > > любить ‘to love’ < PSl. *ľubiti > > Proto-Slavic already had a number of palatalized consonants, most > easily traceable ň, ľ, ř. Those later merged with the newly > palatalized consonants before front vowels. > > So there are clearly native examples of Cʲa and Cʲu. The lack of > Cʲo is curious. Leaving aside the later development of ё, Russian > morphology shows an alternation between Cʲe and Co. I don't know > what to make of that. > > Huh, it seems to have been as simple as fronting o > e after > palatal consonants: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language#Alternations > >>> This could be related to the fact that the Russian >>> vowels have fronted allophones after (ё) or between (ю) palatalized >>> consonants. >> >> Yes, this is a better reason for using ё and ю. It also accounts for the >> Bulgarians using ьо /jo/. (Found another example: шофьор 'driver'.) > > You keep writing /jo/, but there is no /j/. Шофьор is /ʃoˈfʲɔr/. > When an actual /j/ is needed, Bulgarian resorts to й: > Jörg Haider > Йорг Хайдер > yo-yo > йо-йо My impression from Wikipedia was that the Bulgarians could not agree on whether /Cj/ or /C'/ was the correct analysis (for the standard language). > Russian also tends to use йо over ё in such contexts. >