Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria --self-evident truth--limits-- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 11:37:09 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 220 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 16:37:09 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cd243b087f0ff467eeb7e8496efe134c"; logging-data="1675407"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+gMGEc3vxzrUI3xxkSTYjG" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:smCPBZolp3y4BfFEwB2Mi6GQx9E= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 11637 On 3/20/2024 10:34 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-03-20 13:32:03 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 3/20/2024 3:15 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-03-20 03:00:33 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 3/19/2024 11:14 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>> On 2024-03-19 15:47:14 +0000, olcott said: >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/19/2024 3:39 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>> On 2024-03-18 23:02:18 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/18/2024 6:26 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-18 03:07:18 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/17/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/17/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/17/2024 12:37 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/24 14:11, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/17/2024 12:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 10:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/17/2024 12:00 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 9:42 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2024 11:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 9:13 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2024 10:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2024 9:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 5:50 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2024 7:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/24 8:29 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 11:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 8:45 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) fails to make the required mistake of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reporting on what it does not see. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it DOES make a mistake, because it does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer the question correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just PROVING you think lying is ok. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You TOTALLY don't understand the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are REALLY just a Pathological Liar, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have no concept of real truth, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The original halt status criteria has the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(D,D) must report on behavior that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not actually see. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requiring H to be clairvoyant is an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreasonable requirement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The criteria shown below eliminate the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement of clairvoyance* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) If simulating halt decider H correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates its input D until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H correctly determines that its simulated D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would never stop running >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless aborted then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H correctly simulates its input D until* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Means H does a correct partial simulation of D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until H correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the recursive simulation non-halting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior pattern. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But turning out to be impposible, doesn't make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it incorrect or invalid. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You seems to be ridiculously disingenuous about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the self-evident truth* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For every possible way that H can be encoded and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D(D) calls H(D,D) either H(D,D) aborts its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation or D(D) never stops running. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you are incredably stupid to not see this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't prove what you need it to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, if you define H to not abort, the we get a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-haltig D(D), but H doesn't answwer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, if you define H to abort, then, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We see that you changed the subject away from: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Proof that H(D,D) meets its abort criteria] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H is an algorithm that simulates its input and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determines whether or not it needs to abort this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is all that this thread's H does. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what defines "Need"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the set of every implementation of its spec: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) H(D,D) Simulate input. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Determine if it needs to stop simulating its input >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulated D(D) from never halting. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And thus not a specific algorithm? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, HOW do you determine NEED? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not an algorithmic step. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can only verify that in retrospect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you fully understand the spec? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I think not the way you do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To me, for H to NEED to abort its simulation, that means >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that when giving the input to a correct simulator, that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator will not halt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes that is correct. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have just proven that H doesn't need abort its >>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and the abort decision is incorrect. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The head games of a Troll. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For every possible way that H can be encoded and D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>> calls H(D,D) either H(D,D) aborts its simulation or D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>> never stops running. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Which prove NOTHING, as D varies with H, so no D that was >>>>>>>>>>> built with an H that aborts its simulation has had its actual >>>>>>>>>>> halting status tested. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *That merely changes the wording of the same truism* >>>>>>>>>> ∀H ∀D such that H(D,D) simulates its input and D calls H(D,D) >>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) does not abort its simulation necessitates simulated D(D) >>>>>>>>>> never stops running. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You should restrict your H so that any H that simulates D(D) >>>>>>>>> forever >>>>>>>>> is excluded, as simulating forver makes it a non-decider. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do yet so far everyone says that they believe this is impossible >>>>>>>> so I have to go back a few steps and prove that it is possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In logic any well defined expressible condition is allowed, even ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========