Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Martin Harran Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Teilhard de Chardin - new documentary Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:11:03 +0100 Organization: Newshosting.com - Highest quality at a great price! www.newshosting.com Lines: 129 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: <00mh4jhgge1kn69fhaq3mer8ol739ohacs@4ax.com> <9b4171a3-43c1-4d83-877b-c85460aed913@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="66774"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 21074229870; Mon, 20 May 2024 07:10:54 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E0522986E for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 07:10:51 -0400 (EDT) id 7BC1F7D11E; Mon, 20 May 2024 11:11:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay.zaccari.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734477D009 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 11:11:07 +0000 (UTC) by nntpmail01.iad.omicronmedia.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA070E1453 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 11:11:05 +0000 (UTC) id 9FC4B492018D; Mon, 20 May 2024 11:11:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Path: fx43.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:11:04 UTC Bytes: 8176 On Sun, 19 May 2024 13:09:51 +0000, *Hemidactylus* wrote: >Martin Harran wrote: >> On Sat, 18 May 2024 17:17:44 -0500, DB Cates >> wrote: >> >>> On 2024-05-18 3:54 PM, erik simpson wrote: >>>> On 5/18/24 11:24 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote: >>>>> Martin Harran wrote: >>>>>> (RNS) - In the history of the Catholic Church, too many innovative >>>>>> thinkers were persecuted before they were accepted and then embraced >>>>>> by the church. >>>>>> >>>>>> The list includes St. Thomas Aquinas (whose books were burned by the >>>>>> bishop of Paris), St. Ignatius Loyola (who was investigated by the >>>>>> Spanish Inquisition) and St. Mary MacKillop (an Australian nun who was >>>>>> excommunicated by her bishop for uncovering and reporting clergy child >>>>>> sex abuse). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not surprising, then, that a French Jesuit scientist, Pierre >>>>>> Teilhard de Chardin, who tried to bridge the gap between faith and >>>>>> science, got himself in trouble with church officials and his Jesuit >>>>>> superiors in the 20th century. Only after his death was he recognized >>>>>> as the inspired genius that he was. >>>>>> >>>>>> His story is magnificently told in a new PBS documentary, "Teilhard: >>>>>> Visionary Scientist," which was produced by Frank Frost Productions in >>>>>> a 13-year labor of love. It took Frank and Mary Frost to four >>>>>> countries on three continents, a total of 25 locations, and included >>>>>> more than 35 interviews. >>>>>> >>>>>> [?] >>>>>> >>>>>> "Teilhard: Visionary Scientist" will premiere on Maryland Public >>>>>> Television on May 19 and be available for national and international >>>>>> streaming for two years, beginning on May 20, on the free PBS app. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2024/05/13/pierre-teilhard-de-chardin-pbs-documentary-247920 >>>>>> >>>>> Will this awkwardness be included in the magnificent retelling?: >>>>> ?Teilhard has been criticized as incorporating common notions of Social >>>>> Darwinism [sic] and scientific racism into his work, along with >>>>> support for >>>>> eugenics,[41] Teilhard sharply criticized the idea of racial equality, >>>>> saying in 1929: "Do the yellows?[the Chinese]?have the same human >>>>> value as >>>>> the whites? [Fr.] Licent and many missionaries say that their present >>>>> inferiority is due to their long history of Paganism. I'm afraid that >>>>> this >>>>> is only a 'declaration of pastors.' Instead, the cause seems to be the >>>>> natural racial foundation?"[41] Too, he said in 1936, "As not all ethnic >>>>> groups have the same value, they must be dominated, which does not mean >>>>> they must be despised?quite the reverse?In other words, at one and the >>>>> same >>>>> time there should be official recognition of: (1) the primacy/priority of >>>>> the earth over nations; (2) the inequality of peoples and races."[41] And >>>>> around 1937, he said, "What fundamental attitude?should the advancing >>>>> wing >>>>> of humanity take to fixed or definitely unprogressive ethnical groups? >>>>> The >>>>> earth is a closed and limited surface. To what extent should it tolerate, >>>>> racially or nationally, areas of lesser activity? More generally >>>>> still, how >>>>> should we judge the efforts we lavish in all kinds of hospitals on saving >>>>> what is so often no more than one of life?s rejects??To what extent >>>>> should >>>>> not the development of the strong?take precedence over the >>>>> preservation of >>>>> the weak?"[41] >>>>> In 1951, Teilhard continued to argue for racial and individual eugenics, >>>>> and wrote a strongly worded criticism of the United Nations >>>>> declaration of >>>>> the Equality of Races. He continued to argue for eugenics as late as >>>>> 1953, >>>>> two years before his death.[41] Nevertheless, he has also been >>>>> defended by >>>>> theologian John F. Haught.[42][43]? >>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin >>>>> >>>>> https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/teilhard-eugenics >>>>> >>>>> https://ejournals.bc.edu/index.php/ctsa/article/view/11473/9623 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> These views were (or should have been) anachronistic circa 1950, >>>> although many still subscribe to the notion. That said, I'm impatient >>>> with "cancellation" of figures from the past for holding views that were >>>> "common knowledge" at the time. Very few people in the 19th century >>>> would escape being called racist by modern standards. There is such a >>>> thing as progress, even if it's not always obvious. >>>> >>> I don't think calling for avoiding hagiography is the same as calling >>> for "cancelling". >>> -- >> >> If a documentary were to be made about Darwin and did not refer to the >> fact that some people [1] claim that he was racist and eugenicist, >> even an encouragement to Naziism, would you regard that as >> hagiography? >> >> >> [1] Some people NOT including me. >> >Julian Huxley, who just happened to write an intro to Teilhard's *The >Phenomenon of Man*, was kinda into eugenics: > >https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4366572/ > >Oh: https://fore.yale.edu/files/79-teilhard_and_huxley.pdf > >One of my personal heroes Ernst Mayr dipped his own toes into the eugenic >stream himself: > >https://digirepo.nlm.nih.gov/ext/document/101584582X183/PDF/101584582X183.pdf > >From: https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/catalog/nlm:nlmuid-101584582X183-doc WOW, some of your heroes were less than perfect beings … who'da thunk it. > >I'm not about to sweep that bit of awkwardness under the rug. > >For whatever reason Teilhard should not be subjected to the same scrutiny I >suppose. Of course he is subject to scrutiny but in an objective way, not a one-sided way as per the Wiki article you quoted.