Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: *Hemidactylus* Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Belief - I'd like to share this item with you. Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 00:42:49 +0000 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 217 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <2VOdnYILL92UOHL4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> References: <5f09ba95-910f-4814-8c90-85af86ac1a53@gmail.com> <86bk83zbvj.fsf@example.com> <86o7c0fcjk.fsf@example.com> <86frxb8e1h.fsf@example.com> <44ycnd-RzOg5sXz4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> <86h6hqt028.fsf@example.com> <868r2oamsy.fsf@example.com> <864jdcahor.fsf@example.com> <86zfv48zcl.fsf@example.com> <86r0gg8n9e.fsf@example.com> <86frww8flc.fsf@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="19062"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch) To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:O309nFECNS/s0WOhB/SdHgufosY= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id E222922976C; Mon, 11 Mar 2024 20:39:21 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD01229758 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2024 20:39:19 -0400 (EDT) id A2DFA7D11E; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 00:42:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay.zaccari.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC8B7D009 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 00:42:50 +0000 (UTC) by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F9361153 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 00:41:12 +0000 (UTC) by serv-2.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D78440673 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2024 19:42:49 -0500 (CDT) by serv-2.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 42C0gnYe029957; Mon, 11 Mar 2024 19:42:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-2.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 00:42:49 +0000 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 14566 Richmond wrote: > *Hemidactylus* writes: > >> Richmond wrote: >>> *Hemidactylus* writes: >>> >>>> Richmond wrote: >>>>> Ernest Major <{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/03/2024 15:53, Richmond wrote: >>>>>>> Ernest Major <{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/03/2024 14:02, Richmond wrote: >>>>>>>>> Richmond writes: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Hemidactylus* writes: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Richmond wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Ernest Major <{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> writes: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/02/2024 22:29, Richmond wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jillery <69jpil69@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 11:46:40 +0000, Richmond wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> erik simpson writes: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/25/24 3:24 PM, David B. wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25 Feb 2024 at 23:04:07 GMT, "erik simpson" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/25/24 2:49 PM, David B. wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25 Feb 2024 at 18:52:30 GMT, "erik simpson" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the record, I think Behe is pretty close to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being a crank. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What evidence do you have for reaching such a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion, Erik? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TIA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Fellow at Discovery Institute says all you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to know. I've not heard of the organisation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before. I've read here:- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.discovery.org/about/ What do you feel is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contentious? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The focus on Intellligent Design (ID). This has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicked around on this group for many years, and has its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proponents. Obviously, I'm not one of them. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> propose to re-argue this subject. Check through prior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions here if you want to get the flavor of it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not interested in getting involved in such a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a group whose description is "Evolution versus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creationism (sometimes hot!)." I would have thought the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject will come up over and over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It has. My impression is that's one reason so many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't interested. in it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the other kinds of creationism apart from I.D.? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One could argue that ID is all kinds of creationism. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> distinguishing points of ID are >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) a professed agnosticism about the identity of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> creator ("designer"), at least when wearing one's ID hat. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) a claim, shared with scientific creationism, that there >>>>>>>>>>>>> is evidence that life was created rather than evolved. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Members of the ID movement can hold to just about any >>>>>>>>>>>>> version of creationism (include geocentrism and >>>>>>>>>>>>> platygaianism). ID is a political movement, and theistic >>>>>>>>>>>>> evolutionists tend not to share the movement's goals, so >>>>>>>>>>>>> they are rare among ID advocates. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * abiotic creationists (God created the universe) * single >>>>>>>>>>>>> creation creationists (God created the urorganism) * >>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple-creation creationists (God created multiple kinds >>>>>>>>>>>>> of life) ** young earth creationists *** young earth >>>>>>>>>>>>> anevolutionists *** young earth hyperevolutionists ** young >>>>>>>>>>>>> life creationists ** old earth creationists * progressive >>>>>>>>>>>>> creationists ** episodic progressive creationists (God >>>>>>>>>>>>> creates successive biotas) ** discontinuous progressive >>>>>>>>>>>>> creationists (God creates species) ** continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>> progressive creationism (God creates mutations/selection) >>>>>>>>>>>>> ** occasionalist creationism (Islamo-Calvinist determinism) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are non-Abrahamic forms of creationism. One might >>>>>>>>>>>>> also consider Raelianism as a non-religious form of >>>>>>>>>>>>> creationism. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's most useful to define creationism so it lines up with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the fault lines in society, rather than focussing on the >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularities of belief (defining creationism as >>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent to theism isn't helpful.) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence, my preferred definition of creationism is >>>>>>>>>>>>> "religiously motivated rejection of substantial proportions >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the scientific consensus, especially as relating to >>>>>>>>>>>>> biology, geology and cosmology, or the promotion >>>>>>>>>>>>> thereof". The line I'd draw between theistic evolutionism >>>>>>>>>>>>> and progressive creationism is that the former has God >>>>>>>>>>>>> guiding the course of evolution but accepts that natural >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes can produce the same or equivalent result, while >>>>>>>>>>>>> the latter asserts that natural processes cannot produce >>>>>>>>>>>>> the modern day biota. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In another context creationism is the position that human >>>>>>>>>>>>> souls are created de novo, as opposed to traducianism and >>>>>>>>>>>>> other positions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, that is fascinating, I had to look up a few words. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What interests me is: what is it in the human psyche which >>>>>>>>>>>> made people come up with these theories, and gives them the >>>>>>>>>>>> energy to keep persuing them even in the face of >>>>>>>>>>>> adversity. Also the idea of another world, which is more >>>>>>>>>>>> real than this one, which crops up still in popular culture, >>>>>>>>>>>> like "The Matrix", a Gnostic idea that the world is created >>>>>>>>>>>> by something evil, and our purpose is to break free of the >>>>>>>>>>>> illusion and take our rightful place. I think Jung would say >>>>>>>>>>>> that other place is the unconscious, and that it created >>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness in its own image. ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========