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From: jillery <69jpil69@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Wistar Symposium "Mathematical Challenge to Neo-Darwinism".
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 23:41:43 -0400
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On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 07:10:10 -0700, John Harshman
<john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 6/9/24 5:16 AM, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 10:32:25 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 2024-06-08 20:51:39 +0000, John Harshman said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/8/24 1:38 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>> jillery wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 11:24:58 -0400, Ron Dean
>>>>>> <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> jillery wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 12:42:57 -0400, Ron Dean
>>>>>>>> <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How many have you read pointing out the flaws
>>>>>>>>>>> in evolutionary theory?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The problem with that question is you and other cdesign =
proponentsists
>>>>>>>>>> have a very flawed concept of what qualifies as flaws in =
evolutionary
>>>>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IOW - None!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IOW - when someone says "stasis is the exact opposite of gradual
>>>>>>>> change", it shows they have no idea what the words even mean,
>>>>>>>> nevermind what they're talking about, nevermind what the people =
they
>>>>>>>> quote are talking about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then please explain precisely what Gould meant by stasis and =
equilibrium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why sure, just as soon as you explain precisely what you meant by
>>>>>> stasis and equilibrium.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I accepted Gould's definition, stasis means stability. He points =
out
>>>>> that historically when paleontologist were faced with stasis they =
saw
>>>>> it as "no data".
>>>>>
>>>>> But as I recall, the scientist on Darwin's day pointed this out to
>>>>> Darwin, so he was aware of this. But it was soon overlooked and =
ignored
>>>>> by scientist while searching for evidence to support Darwin's =
theory. I
>>>>> think that explains the "no data".
>>>>>
>>>>> Equilibrium was preceded and followed stasis. So punctuated
>>>>> equilibrium, as I understood Dr Gould's view, he saw periods of =
stasis
>>>>> followed by punctuated (rapid appearance of new species =
(geologically
>>>>> speaking)), then long spans of stasis (little or no change) then =
sudden
>>>>> disappearance.
>>>>>
>>>>> IOW stasis marked as an "x species" which was _punctuated_ (evolved
>>>>> rapidly) into a new stable "y species".=C3=82=C2=A0 He calls =
punctuated which is
>>>>> not observe as _peripherical_isolatiates_.
>>>>> If I wrong then please explain why.
>>>>
>>>> Mostly OK, if oddly stated. A few problems
>>>>
>>>> 1. "Sudden disappearance" is not in any way a part of the theory.
>>>>
>>>> 2. You have the equilibrium part all wrong. The equilibrium is =
stasis.
>>>>
>>>> 3. The term is "peripheral isolates", adopted from Ernst Mayr, and =
I'm
>>>> not sure you know what they are. They're just small, geographically
>>>> isolated populations on the periphery of a species range.
>>>
>>> Speciation in such cases can happen remarkably rapidly. On the island
>>> of Madeira there are six races (the term they use, though they fit
>>> Mayr's definition of species) of mice, that cannot breed either with
>>> one another or with the common European mouse. They appear to have
>>> evolved within the past 1000 years (if you assume they are descended
>>>from mice introduced by the Vikings), or much less than that if they=20
>>> came with the Portuguese. (Madeira is an island with numerous deep
>>> valleys separated by high ground that mice can't cross.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> I like this example:
>> <https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6372/224>
>>=20
>>  From the abstract:
>> *************************
>> Homoploid hybrid speciation in animals has been inferred frequently
>> from patterns of variation, but few examples have withstood critical
>> scrutiny. Here we report a directly documented example, from its
>> origin to reproductive isolation. An immigrant Darwin=E2=80=99s finch =
to
>> Daphne Major in the Gal=C3=A1pagos archipelago initiated a new genetic
>> lineage by breeding with a resident finch (Geospiza fortis). Genome
>> sequencing of the immigrant identified it as a G. conirostris male
>> that originated on Espa=C3=B1ola >100 kilometers from Daphne Major. =
From
>> the second generation onward, the lineage bred endogamously and,
>> despite intense inbreeding, was ecologically successful and showed
>> transgressive segregation of bill morphology. This example shows that
>> reproductive isolation, which typically develops over hundreds of
>> generations, can be established in only three.
>> *************************
>>=20
>> Not bad for a bunch of birdbrains.
>
>Rapid speciation, perhaps. Peripheral isolate speciation, no.


Peripheral isolate speciation doesn't inform this discussion.  My
impression is it's something R.Dean tossed out to hide the hole into
which he's dug himself.


>>>>   Some peripheral isolates are in fact observed. If you look at the
>>>> original publication, Eldredge N., Gould S.J. Punctuated equilibria:=
 an
>>>> alternative to phyletic gradualism. In: Schopf T.J.M. editor. Models=
 of
>>>> Paleobiology, 1972. p. 82-115, you will see that it produces a =
couple
>>>> of examples of peripheral isolates, notably in a trilobite, Phacops
>>>> rana.
>>>>
>>>> 4. You should know that punctuated equilibria is not very popular =
with
>>>> evolutionary biologists.


--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge