Path: ...!Xl.tags.giganews.com!local-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 01:50:21 +0000 From: john larkin Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 18:50:21 -0700 Message-ID: <37bf6jh48vecisoi4r5i83j2aimmblbpoq@4ax.com> References: <7bgc6jhk2ae8lp8g3si4loehv968oorocs@4ax.com> User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 115 X-Trace: sv3-zheWZzppw9mYSPNhTEK3idHfiAF0gLzlmJe/KfgA9nvzm5tt0bT7qsQMuOzI3sknkOwkDG/WWmQmetC!7c/KORcI9tZQUlBy1oLqMTwkIa9HvaAVNaoT/oSV1t228luQSft4rVB4T/pTg8HOomS8U+K+j52R!Hvi5Mg== X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 7087 On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:10:40 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote: >On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote: >> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman >> wrote: >> >>> On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote: >>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote: >>>>>> In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between >>>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>>>> we settled on 3'). >>>>>> >>>>>> SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >>>>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >>>>>> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address >>>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so >>>>>> total load isn't an issue? >>>>>> >>>>>> E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >>>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric >>>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of >>>>>> outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>>>> over where they can be put into use. >>>>>> >>>>> We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired >>>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other >>>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm >>>>> cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket >>>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses >>>>> depending. >>>> >>>> Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater, >>>> cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very >>>> reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home? >>> >>> Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a >>> third to one quarter of the cost. >>> >>> There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps >>> instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same >>> heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat >>> for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps >>> are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All >>> this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power. >>> What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have >>> to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower >>> temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This >>> necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor >>> water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation >>> so that heat loss is reduced. >>> >>>> How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month? >>> >>> How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences, >>> weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including >>> losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls >>> the prices of gas and electricity. From >>> : "From 1 July until 30 >>> September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh), >>> and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much) >>> lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company >>> who supplies the power. >>> >>> I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's >>> a lot more information there. >> >> I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of >> gas-to-electricity converter machine. > >There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill >last year: >"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have >to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works: >GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6" >That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so >the calculation was: >146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh) > >The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the >source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1 >cubic metre. > >> The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive >> electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient. > >??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive >electric heating is 100% efficient! Unless you run it through a heat pump, which makes it 300% efficient. > >> There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley >> CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will >> keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley. > >Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes >from 2025 (probably?). See > Bask in the cold dark.