Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsfeed.xs3.de!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: John Harshman Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 18:26:37 -0700 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 307 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: <3n8m2jtvhd0nahms2un4i2gjbt1t6bpbk2@4ax.com> <2e5n3j1u9a0pdcmpd4m78l2dssq3kns552@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="50589"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id C8A7A229870; Sun, 19 May 2024 21:27:26 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982F822986E for ; Sun, 19 May 2024 21:27:24 -0400 (EDT) id BC70D5DC4B; Mon, 20 May 2024 01:27:39 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay-1.kamens.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2165DC4A for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 01:27:39 +0000 (UTC) by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA12603C0 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC) by serv-3.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D6F4406B0 for ; Sun, 19 May 2024 20:26:38 -0500 (CDT) by serv-3.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 44K1Qbq4089274; Sun, 19 May 2024 20:26:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-3.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 01:26:37 +0000 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 20066 On 5/19/24 3:27 PM, Ron Dean wrote: > John Harshman wrote: >> On 5/18/24 8:41 PM, Ron Dean wrote: >>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>> Ernest Major wrote: >>>>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote: >>>>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> major snip >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> course, history is written by the victors. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tariffs imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery. In fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years after the start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only after Great Brittan showed an interested in entering >>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the war on the side of the South. Slavery was then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> made a moral issue, which deterred Britten, which earlier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> had outlawed slave trading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> lengthy-but-ever-expanding list of topics about which you >>>>>>>>>>>>> blather sans knowledge. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so >>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately after gaining independence from Britain there >>>>>>>>>>>>> would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> stop them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at >>>>>>>>>>>>> times) in the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a >>>>>>>>>>>>> fair bit of time before the 1858 point in time you assert >>>>>>>>>>>>> (idiotically) people all of a sudden became concerned with >>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery. And at that Convention a resolution was passed >>>>>>>>>>>>> that the international slave trade would be banned in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> US in 1800. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave >>>>>>>>>>>>> state and Maine as a free state. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, >>>>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those >>>>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included, >>>>>>>>>>>>> shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to >>>>>>>>>>>>> inflame tensions between north and south. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the >>>>>>>>>>>>> disaster now called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard >>>>>>>>>>>>> of John Brown, and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid >>>>>>>>>>>>> on Harper's Ferry? No? Not surprising if you think no one >>>>>>>>>>>>> cared about slavery until two years before the Civil War. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you, >>>>>>>>>>>>> that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're >>>>>>>>>>>>> all available. Without fail, they all inform us that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason they are seceding is slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the >>>>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the >>>>>>>>>>>>> war; it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Negro") that relegates them to their lot as slaves. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything. >>>>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War >>>>>>>>>>>>> is especially disgusting. Stop it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, >>>>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do. >>>>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern >>>>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with >>>>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere. >>>>>>>>>>>> Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and >>>>>>>>>>>> manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded >>>>>>>>>>>> with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers >>>>>>>>>>>> going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but >>>>>>>>>>>> they bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my >>>>>>>>>>>> ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies >>>>>>>>>>>> to most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was >>>>>>>>>>>> raped, and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not >>>>>>>>>>>> that I'm proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had >>>>>>>>>>>> life, which otherwise I would not have had. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in >>>>>>>>>>>> Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would >>>>>>>>>>>> not have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and >>>>>>>>>>>> mother ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The >>>>>>>>>>>> point is we don't always have control over the events that >>>>>>>>>>>> happened, and often tragedies that happen can have positive >>>>>>>>>>>> outcomes for some of us. >>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/ >>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html >>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for >>>>>>>>>>> one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your >>>>>>>>>>> family history, and even if it's true, I don't care. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial >>>>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find >>>>>>>>>>> even a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting >>>>>>>>>>> racist bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a >>>>>>>>>>> passage from near the end (did you read anything besides the >>>>>>>>>>> title? Your scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty- >>>>>>>>>>> both are in the sewer): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as >>>>>>>>>>> Cobden and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill >>>>>>>>>>> Tariff had been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It >>>>>>>>>>> unintentionally alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery >>>>>>>>>>> ally for what could, at best, be described as short term >>>>>>>>>>> economic favors to a few politically connected firms and ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========