Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: The Golden Ratio Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:07 +0100 Organization: De Ster Lines: 121 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <1qqgjh9.1qwr77z8lpfpfN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> References: <1qq1l89.63rl4suykdp3N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qq1xwl.3hfpplyykf1gN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <5sfkuihmuln05ms4v74t94vghg7ea838en@4ax.com> <1qqcz55.1qqd56hjjrzm2N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <1qqdp3r.1imvbi8hv0qfgN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <37719970-c407-40a2-b0ee-b2803b22de88@gmail.com> <1qqfidw.kbmjqquc8j0oN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <69c02437-ed73-46d2-b21c-6b7ba4bd963b@gmail.com> Reply-To: jjlax32@xs4all.nl (J. J. Lodder) Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="5496"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.8.5 (ea919cf118) (Mac OS 10.12.6) To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:2+qoc+yUPMmns8iDIoNjtA3zHKc= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 16A23229782; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 16:45:44 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC6F122976C for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 16:45:41 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.97) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1rlaxw-000000029S1-3qTg; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:17 +0100 id 5A34DDC01CB; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:08 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX18tAM5QcZonFN2oH4krZs8VXX0WheSi6BBdESWXWvC4SA== Bytes: 7001 erik simpson wrote: > On 3/14/24 2:40 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote: > > erik simpson wrote: > > > >> On 3/14/24 9:56 AM, Bob Casanova wrote: > >>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:58:30 +0100, the following appeared > >>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. > >>> Lodder): > >>> > >>>> Bob Casanova wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:39:38 +0100, the following appeared > >>>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. > >>>>> Lodder): > >>>>> > >>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2024-03-07 22:31:27 +0000, Bob Casanova said: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 17:51:40 GMT, the following appeared in > >>>>>>>> talk.origins, posted by dgb (David) > >>>>>>>> : > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 17:41:02 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> dgb wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 09:38:23 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" : > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Kalkidas wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> dgb (David) Wrote in message:r > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this occur by accident?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golde n_ > > ra > >>>> tio > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or by design? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It will never be known. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing to know there, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Jan > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The thing to know, Jan, is that it hasn't all happened by > >>>>>>>>>>>accident! > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It hasn't happened at all. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> You are, of course, mistaken. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Wrong. Nothing "happened"; the so-called Golden Ratio, like > >>>>>>>> all mathematical relationships which describe observed > >>>>>>>> phenomena, is a property of physical > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mathematical > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> reality, no more. And, > >>>>>>>> of course, no less. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You are wasting your breath. Bob is an incurable materialist, > >>>>>> incapable of abstraction and idealisation, > >>>>>> > >>>>> Ummm, I didn't say that there are no parts of math which are > >>>>> abstract, only that all math relationships WHICH DESCRIBE > >>>>> PHYSICAL PHENOMENA are properties of those phenomena. > >>>> > >>>> So the integers are a property of your football scores? > >>>> "No more, and no less", like you say, > >>>> > >>> Overgeneralizations and "football scores" aside... > >>> > >>> If I understand you, the mathematical relationships which > >>> describe observed physical relationships do *not* describe > >>> those relationships? OK. Maybe the word "properties" is > >>> what's causing you grief? Or maybe it's the phrase "no more > >>> and no less; if that's the case consider it removed, > >>> leaving: > >>> > >>> "...the so-called Golden Ratio, like all mathematical > >>> relationships which describe observed phenomena, is a > >>> property of physical reality in the sense that it precisely > >>> describes such physical relationship." > >>> > >>> Better? Clumsy, of course, but since hyperbole and/or > >>> imprecision in general discussion is apparently verboten... > >> > >> The golden ratio a/b == (a+b)/a. Observed phenomena may approximate > >> that number, but the mathematical interest since antiquity has little to > >> do with that. In mathematics it appears in all kinds of surprising > >> contexts. Wikipedia presents many of them. > > > > And it is not really a ratio of anything. > > It is traditionally called a ratio because to the ancient Greeks > > all numbers except the integers could only be represented as ratios. > > It is just a number. > > Best defined, as a number, purely arithmetically, > > as the simplest possible continued fraction. > > (just my preference) > > No need to invoked more complicated concepts, > > like square roots, solving quadratic equations, etc., > > or even number systems to some base, > > > > Jan > > > > > The Pythagoreans did better than that by proving that there exit > irrational numbers (such as the golden ratio). The continued fraction > representation is indeed very elegant, but it also implies an irrational > value. Not realy, because they did not have the number concept. What they did prove was that there are irrational ratios. Or the same in other words, unmeasurable ratios. In still other words: Pythagoras himself already blew Bob's naive conception of reality out of the water. (while throwing his pupil into it) Jan