Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does V3 --- Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 12:28:12 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 88 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 05 May 2024 19:28:12 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="541e9246f979204e7e622a92e4a7a032"; logging-data="2082623"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/vE226/hmSog/TBh6Ka0oD" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:bkAuuqgfYx4btin6/EF+u7DyUVM= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 5892 On 5/5/2024 11:46 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 5/5/24 12:29 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/5/2024 10:42 AM, joes wrote: >>> Am Sun, 05 May 2024 09:30:20 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>> >>>> On 5/5/2024 5:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 05.mei.2024 om 05:17 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 5/4/2024 9:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/4/24 9:30 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 8:05 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 8:49 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 7:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 8:20 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 7:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 7:51 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 6:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 7:01 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 5:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 6:08 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 4:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 5:18 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 3:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 2:46 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 12:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 12:31 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 10:52 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/24 10:48 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 9:39 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2024 5:56 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> [please snip your replies a little] >>> >>>>>>> Note, you CAN'T just "Stipulate" that a given machine IS a UTM >>>>>>> except >>>>>>> by defining that it works just like a UTM, which means, for one >>>>>>> thing, it can NEVER abort its simulation, not even after determining >>>>>>> that it will simulate this input forever. >>>>>>> >>>>>> None-the-less a TM that correctly simulates N steps cannot be said to >>>>>> have simulated those N steps incorrectly on the basis that it could >>>>>> have simulated N+1 steps. >>>>>> >>>>> Those N steps were simulated correctly, but the fact that it stops >>>>> after N steps make it an incorrect simulation. >>>> >>>> In other words a decider is wrong unless it never stops simulating an >>>> non-halting input? >>> >>> Correct. Simulating here means producing the exact same behaviour. >>> If it is correct up to a point, it might still make a mistake later. >>> The only way to know is to keep simulating. >>> >> >> void Infinite_Recursion(u32 N) >> { >>    Infinite_Recursion(N); >> } >> >> It is counter-factual that the above must be infinitely >> simulated to correctly determine that it never halts. >> > > No, it doesn't need to be simulated forever to determine that it doesn't > halt. > > But, H needs to be able to show that if this EXACT input was given to a > UTM simulator that will not stop until it reaches the end will not reach > an end to be able to correctly say the input is non-halting. > > That works with Infinite_Recursion and Infinite_Simulation, but NOT for > a program that calls H, since H doesn't UNCONDITIONALLY simulate its input. *I PROVED OTHERWISE IN MY NEW POST* [Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H] From this we can definitely know that every D(D) of the infinite set of H/D pairs where this D(D) is simulated by the H that this D(D) calls that this D(D) presents non-halting behavior to this H. -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer