Path: ...!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Richard KEEPS TRYING to get away with this falsehood Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 17:51:20 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 267 Message-ID: References: <-5Gdnf-nQvstC6b7nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 00:51:21 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="d3c8e0ce04b0d93bf756b16462dda1b4"; logging-data="3926403"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19BHjvuz+Jes8SR/M1S/W0d" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:6I4xkV1ItfNZCnifRf8fNhlfw5c= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 13713 On 5/13/2024 4:49 PM, immibis wrote: > On 13/05/24 15:19, olcott wrote: >> On 5/12/2024 11:53 PM, immibis wrote: >>> On 10/05/24 19:49, olcott wrote: >>>> On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm enables >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one C function to execute another C function in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debug step mode. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating Termination analyzer H simulates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x86 machine code of its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input (using libx86emu) in debug step mode until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it correctly matches a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct non-halting behavior pattern proving that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its input will never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop running unless aborted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D correctly simulated by H terminate normally? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Execution Trace* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that simulates D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Simulation invariant* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above execution trace proves that (for every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H/D pair of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the H that this D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls cannot possibly reach past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "every H/D pair" you should specify >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which set of pairs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about. As you don't, your words >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every H/D pair in the universe where D(D) is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This involves 1 to ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps of D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and also includes zero to ∞ recursive simulations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates itself simulating D(D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In the universe" is not a set. In typical set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories like ZFC there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no universal set. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of finite string >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H/D pairs where each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also calls this same H(D,D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the one to ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated steps of D and involve zero to ∞ recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulations of H simulating itself simulating D(D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every time Lines 1,2,3 are simulated again defines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one more level of recursive simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st element of H/D pairs 1 step  of D  is simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the first recursive simulation at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next step of the first recursive simulation at line 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last step of the first recursive simulation at line 03 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the second recursive simulation at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this the definition of the infinite set of H? We can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think of many more simulations that only these. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of finite string >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H/D pairs where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No-one can possibly show one element of this set where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D(D) reaches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is a decider of any kind then the D build from it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of D by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches that line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is another question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My fully operational code proves otherwise* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I seems like you guys don't have a clue about how infinite >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursion works. You can run the code and see that I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one concrete instance as fully operational code. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c >>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 555 u32 HH(ptr P, ptr I) its input in on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 932 int DD(int (*x)()) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> HH is completely broken - it uses a global variable which >>>>>>>>>>>>> is allows HH to detect whether it is the outer HH or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> nested (simulated) HH. As a result, the nested HH behaves >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely differently to the outer HH - I mean >>>>>>>>>>>>> /completely/ differently: it goes through a totally >>>>>>>>>>>>> separate "I am called in nested mode" code path! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The encoding of HH is not the pure function that it needs to >>>>>>>>>>>> be to >>>>>>>>>>>> be a computable function. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Maybe you can settle this* >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The disagreement is entirely over an enormously much simpler >>>>>>>>>>>> thing. >>>>>>>>>>>> The disagreement is that Richard says that a D simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>> H could >>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 and halt. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Here's the proof: >>>>>>>>>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========