Path: ...!news.nobody.at!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.xcski.com!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Ron Dean Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 23:41:33 -0400 Organization: Public Usenet Newsgroup Access Lines: 249 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: <%AzVN.19359$8tL7.11884@fx09.iad> <3n8m2jtvhd0nahms2un4i2gjbt1t6bpbk2@4ax.com> <2e5n3j1u9a0pdcmpd4m78l2dssq3kns552@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="16888"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 13.4; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2 To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 2EE12229870; Sat, 18 May 2024 23:41:34 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D09F422986E for ; Sat, 18 May 2024 23:41:31 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.97) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1s8XQf-00000002Bcf-13Wb; Sun, 19 May 2024 05:41:45 +0200 by nntpmail01.iad.omicronmedia.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67E70E1440 for ; Sun, 19 May 2024 03:41:34 +0000 (UTC) id 1FB9922801CA; Sun, 19 May 2024 03:41:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Path: fx13.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail In-Reply-To: X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@newsgroups-download.com X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 03:41:33 UTC Bytes: 15770 Chris Thompson wrote: > Ron Dean wrote: >> Ernest Major wrote: >>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>> Ernest Major wrote: >>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> major snip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from the >>>>>>>>>>> North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and >>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave >>>>>>>>>>> trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of >>>>>>>>>>> course, history is written by the victors. >>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was tariffs >>>>>>>>>>> imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to slavery. In >>>>>>>>>>> fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2 years after the >>>>>>>>>>> start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln only after Great >>>>>>>>>>> Brittan showed an interested in entering into the war on the >>>>>>>>>>> side of the South. Slavery was then made a moral issue, which >>>>>>>>>>> deterred Britten, which earlier had outlawed slave trading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the lengthy-but-ever-expanding >>>>>>>>>> list of topics about which you blather sans knowledge. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be >>>>>>>>>> abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so >>>>>>>>>> immediately after gaining independence from Britain there >>>>>>>>>> would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't stop >>>>>>>>>> them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at times) in >>>>>>>>>> the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a fair bit of >>>>>>>>>> time before the 1858 point in time you assert (idiotically) >>>>>>>>>> people all of a sudden became concerned with slavery. And at >>>>>>>>>> that Convention a resolution was passed that the international >>>>>>>>>> slave trade would be banned in the US in 1800. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when the >>>>>>>>>> Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, and the >>>>>>>>>> result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave state and >>>>>>>>>> Maine as a free state. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, >>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those >>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included, >>>>>>>>>> shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to >>>>>>>>>> inflame tensions between north and south. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to the >>>>>>>>>> Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the disaster now >>>>>>>>>> called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard of John Brown, >>>>>>>>>> and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid on Harper's Ferry? >>>>>>>>>> No? Not surprising if you think no one cared about slavery >>>>>>>>>> until two years before the Civil War. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you, >>>>>>>>>> that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was. >>>>>>>>>> Slavery. >>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs. >>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights. >>>>>>>>>> Slavery. >>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're all >>>>>>>>>> available. Without fail, they all inform us that the reason >>>>>>>>>> they are seceding is slavery. >>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander >>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the >>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the war; >>>>>>>>>> it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the Negro") >>>>>>>>>> that relegates them to their lot as slaves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything. >>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War is >>>>>>>>>> especially disgusting. Stop it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, >>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do. >>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern >>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with >>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere. >>>>>>>>> Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and >>>>>>>>> manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded >>>>>>>>> with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers >>>>>>>>> going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but they >>>>>>>>> bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my >>>>>>>>> ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies to >>>>>>>>> most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was raped, >>>>>>>>> and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not that I'm >>>>>>>>> proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had life, which >>>>>>>>> otherwise I would not have had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in >>>>>>>>> Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would not >>>>>>>>> have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and mother >>>>>>>>> ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The point is we >>>>>>>>> don't always have control over the events that happened, and >>>>>>>>> often tragedies that happen can have positive outcomes for some >>>>>>>>> of us. >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for >>>>>>>> one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your family >>>>>>>> history, and even if it's true, I don't care. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial >>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find even >>>>>>>> a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting racist >>>>>>>> bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a passage from >>>>>>>> near the end (did you read anything besides the title? Your >>>>>>>> scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty- both are in the >>>>>>>> sewer): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as Cobden >>>>>>>> and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill Tariff had >>>>>>>> been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It unintentionally >>>>>>>> alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery ally for what could, >>>>>>>> at best, be described as short term economic favors to a few >>>>>>>> politically connected firms and industrialists. The Confederacy >>>>>>>> eagerly exploited this misstep in its unsuccessful quest for >>>>>>>> diplomatic recognition, yet in doing so also elevated the tariff >>>>>>>> cause from its role as an ancillary secessionist grievance to a >>>>>>>> centerpiece of Lost Cause historiography." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That last bit about "Lost Cause historiography"? They are >>>>>>>> pointing right at you (and the racist scum who wrote your first >>>>>>>> shitty reference). >>>>>>>>  You're still wrong about everything, and you're a liar, and >>>>>>>> you're a racist and an apologist for slavers. >>>>>>>  > ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========