Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jos Boersema Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish Subject: When will 'moshiach' come, 'today', but did not come ... Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:33:24 -0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 449 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 15:33:25 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="77c0e42b20a26571c6625f91284b4ff3"; logging-data="3358459"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19HEMbaJZ3XyNpXXId8hGa3" User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:b9N2RZ2jZg/Njf9GKzm47W9nSZM= Bytes: 28174 title: Machiah Depends on Whom? source: CHEVRATPINTO link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTAK2vdySNY Here is a whole video of the traditional (I suppose) position, that 'moshiach' and the Redemption do *not* depend on 'moshiach', because 'moshiach' is ready *today*. There is the famous story, related again in above linked video, where someone goes to ask 'moshiach', "when he will be coming", and 'moshiach' answers "today", but then (supposedly) does not come. The person who asks goes home and prepares for 'moshiach' coming, it sounds like he is preparing some kind of party, but then nothing happens. The person then goes to ask the ruling prophet of Israel, whom he also asked when 'moshiach' would come and who told him to go ask 'moshiach' himself, why 'moshiach' didn't come, and the prophet then says: "he would have come today, if you had listened to his voice." The Rabbi then goes on to explain that it is not depending on 'moshiach' to come, but upon Israel to behave well. 'Moshiach is ready every day. Reply from undersigned to this video ... Maimonides / Rambam wrote: "12. I believe with complete faith in the coming of Moshiach, and although *he may tarry,* nevertheless, I wait every day for him to come." This is Loshon Hara against 'moshiach', accusing him of tarrying. This is now one of the biggest so-called Sages in Rabbinical Judaism, who is guilty of spreading Loshon Hara against 'moshiach'. People have taken Loshon Hara, and made it the essence of their being Jewish. I think it is bad, also because when they blame 'moshiach', they do not blame themselves for doing not enough Torah, which means they do not understand that the solution is to do more Torah. When 'moshiach' cannot come thanks to their lawbreaking and bad behavior, they blame 'moshiach' for that, and may become demoralized in the Torah generally. I have already seen jokes made against 'moshiach' that he is tarrying. Maimonides / Rambam is also guilty of creating the _heter iska,_ which allows rent seeking on loans from another Jew, which is a similar destruction of the Torah finance system as Hillel the Elder created with his _prosbul._ Perhaps when Israel finally decides to do Teshuvah for the _prosbul_ and the _heter iska_ and the _loshon hara_ of Rambam, and the Sun idolatry at the 2nd Temple called the Lamp of Helena, perhaps that day the Redemption of Israel has started. If Israel does not do Teshuvah, the curses section will take effect again eventually: 7 times worse each time. We all know what happened the last time, about 80 years ago. 7 times worse than that, who can survive it ? Redemption is needed, the bombs got too big.  Have a good day. End quote. Continuing on Usenet ... Here we see how two faced Rabbinical Judaism has become: on the one hand they explain why 'moshiach' wants to come any moment (the story with the bandages in the gates of Rome has the same meaning: 'moshiach' is ready any moment, when Israel wants to Redeem themselves), but then on the other hand, the traitor Rambam / Maimonides apparently invented that moshiach will be tarrying, and not in an obscure place either. It is right there in the 13 "principles of faith", which he invented; besides the cursed 'heter iska' which is pretended to be law in the Shulchan Aruch for example, which is another one of his cursed and law breaking inventions. What gives ? They don't have the courage to declare themselves for the truth. They are apparently happy to talk about two sides of their mouth. it may well be that this particular Rabbi in the video is different, there was no reply yet. I am talking about the whole and the bulk of Rabbinical Judaism. They don't care, because they earn money with their carreers. Israel doesn't care for the truth. They don't withhold their money. Israel themselves don't study the Torah, to notice the obvious problems. * Personally about this story with the man who came to ask 'moshiach', a story I quite often think about, I think you might interpret the story like so ... The man comes to ask 'moshiach': "when do you come". 'Moshiach' is overwhelmed by the sudden request for the Redemption and a return to the truth, to peace and Justice, from Israel, and immediatley blurts out right now !, today. Overjoyed and amazed about the sudden Teshuvah of at least one person in Israel, they part ways, intending to meet up soon for the Redemption. However, when the man is gone again, 'moshiach' looks at what this man is doing, and notices that it is all about the usual: parties for themselves, greedy behavior, not caring really about Justice, skirting around the edges, selfishness, and so on. Typical, they do not want to Redeem themselves after all, they did not do Teshuvah after all. Hence, there is no point in going there, meet up and start the Redemption seriously. There is nobody there who wants to be good. There is nobody there who can live in a Redeemed Israel. They don't want peace, they want more parties to amuze themselves, even though there are people hurting who need help. This people should not, and *cannot* be Redeemed. It was merely a question out of ignorance and misunderstanding, that the man came to ask when 'moshiach' is coming. They did the wrong thing. Let's say they organized a party to welcome 'moshiach' and they ironed their best clothes and put them on, and sweeped the house two times, ordered meat for the table, and so on and so forth. Then they thought, they will greet their supposed King, have a big meal, go to bed half drunk and the next day: conquer the world and party forever when it's done. Live like they do now, but with even more money and more power, at least for the rich of them, and nothing much else changed. Perhaps this is how they receive their ordinary 'Kings like the Nations' (which they asked for), and this is what these people where willing to do for them and themselves if they could, but this is not the Redemption. If they had wanted the Redemption, they would quit all their bad behavior. They would stop to gossip about other people who didn't do much wrong, but rather than talk sneakily and angrily about people behind their backs (not talking about criminals and actual serious bad behavior, but more of the type like "I don't like him/her because of [something which doesn't really matter in the bigger scheme of things], like 'he always thinks he is funny' or 'he keeps on talking'" and that kind of poisenous speech without much or any proof, not to be confused with reasonable concerns about serious criminal activity. They would go out into the people to see who needs help: that is asking 'moshiach' to come. They would be generous, and out there to help. Rather than think of themselves, they would be thinking and worrying about their people, and not just their own family either (although that certainly as well), but basically anyone (except criminals I guess). Rather than sweep their own house twice to make a good impression on their next King (for themselves), they would be out picking garbage from the street just because they think it is the right thing to do, also for themselves, but also for everyone, and for nature. Then if they do all that but they cannot succeed to build a world of peace and justice, and they sigh over their breath "I wish someone would help me help these people, help us all", that is asking moshiach to come. That is the asking for the Redemption, and you may not even have to ask at that point, because your 'moshiach' might already be standing right next to you doing what you are doing with you, and suggesting something strong and powerful to you, above and beyond the usual charity and good works for individuals. Something powerful like a way toward a Sovereign Revolution with an end goal of peace and justice on a greater level than merely giving someone food, above and beyond helping individuals with individual activities. You might not even know that this person is 'moshiach' and you don't even care, and you don't even need to care. Suddenly you might already be in the Redemption, doing it, and only later you realize: this was where it started, this is how we asked 'moshiach' to come, and only now we realized, he was there already before we stood there. We finally came to him, and together we Redeemed us all, and after the necessary time and struggles, we saved the world for peace, all that which deserved to exist. About this difference, between charity and Redemption, it is a similar difference as the action where Moshe Rabbeinu first saves a few people from those vicious Egyptian guards (by killing them). That was charity, but an individual charity, and individual and limited action, with limited results for those people. They where saved from some kind of ongoing abuse, but perhaps only for a moment. Israel does a lot of this kind of charity, which is of course a good thing. Unfortunately they threw away their 7th year debt nullification (prosbul), and are now rent seeking against each other (heter iska), overturning the greater charity on a Sovereign Revolutionary level, which Moshe Rabbeinu did when he gave Israel the Torah, the laws. When Moshe Rabbeinu gave Israel the debt nullification in the 7th year, that wasn't merely charity in an individual case, with an often temporary effect. Those laws would do good from generation to generation, in many houses, many cities, many lands, and even all over the world, forever. When Israel said: "we will do and we will hear", that was the Sovereign Revolution of charitable and hospitable behavior and rules, which also became the Jubilee on land (the right to free land for all, which is very important, and is still absolutely critical to human society, even though they don't have a clue because they don't think or want to use their heads, or both). Since the guy in question wasn't about all that, his question about "when will 'moshiach' come" was probably misunderstood by 'moshiach', because 'moshiach' was so eager to get Justice and Peace established forever, that the hope of finding someone of Israel who wanted to be good overshadowed any caution about the reality of this possibility, but soon after it was already discovered that this person who asked for 'moshiach' did not actually want 'moshiach' after all. It was merely talk, perhaps curiosity, or the will to reign on top of the world with some meaningless Empire like we have seen so many. Kind of like a misunderstanding from both ends. The prophet then apparently rectifies the situation, saying: if you had understood what the 'moshiach' really wants (what we really need to do that is, which is justice and peace), if you really had wanted to listen or ask what you needed to do and then actually did it, then 'moshiach' would have come that day immediately, and the Redemption would start now. ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========