Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Truth Itself is not Broken. Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 19:06:45 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 23:06:46 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="122029"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Bytes: 7482 Lines: 170 On 6/15/24 3:16 PM, olcott wrote: > On 6/15/2024 1:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 6/15/24 2:03 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 6/15/2024 12:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 6/15/24 1:33 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 6/15/2024 12:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 6/15/24 1:16 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> It is not circular because *the paths are of different types* >>>>>>> It is only asking a question about one of these path types at >>>>>>> a time thus never actually circular. >>>>>> >>>>>> The DEFINITION of {Thing} depends on {Physically existing thing} >>>>>> The DEFINITION of {Physically existing thing} depends on {Thing} >>>>>> >>>>>> That is a CYCLE >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then every conditional branch always specifies an infinite loop. >>>> >>>>  From what? >>>> >>>>> The question: What are your parent types stops that {thing} >>>> >>>> Yes, but the question: "What is a {thing}?" is defined by a cycle if >>>> its only definition is its relationships. >>>> >>> >>> The question: What is a {thing} moves downward to its child types >>> to a finite recursive depth. >> >> No, the question is "What is a {thing}" >> > > Of course everyone can see that these two identical questions > have NOTHING to do with each other: > > "What is a {thing}?" > "What is a {thing}?" So, where do you get the anser? Note, it is "what is a {thing}?" and NOT "what are the children of {thing}?" > >> You seem to like wrong questions. >> > > You seems to deny the identity principle. > >>> >>>>> The question: What are your child types always stops at some fixed >>>>> recursive depth. >>>>> >>>>> *NO INFINITE LOOP HERE* >>>> >>>> Because you keep asking the wrong questions, because you close your >>>> eyes to the truth. >>>> >>> >>> When you don't have a clue you resort to rhetoric entirely bereft >>> of any supporting reasoning because this is very convincing to >>> clueless wonders and utterly hollow to those that have a clue. >> >> Nope, You just don't seem smart enpough to understand the issues. >> > > That you can't point to any specific gaps in my reasoning proves > that you only have baseless rhetoric. I think that we established > that my IQ is higher than yours haven't we? I forget. > I Have. You don't understand. An no, your IQ is NOT higher than mine. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> To find the meaning of {Thing} we trace it to {Physically existing >>>>>> thing} which then traces to {Thing} >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you not understand what a cycle is? >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The tree traversal can move up the tree or down the tree >>>>>>> until is reaches the node where it stops. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What are your parent types? >>>>>>> What are your child types? >>>>>> >>>>>> But that doesn't define what a {Thing} actually represents. By all >>>>>> your arguements, {Thing} could be the color "Red" and {Physically >>>>>> existing thig} could be "Fire Engine Red" >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I guess you just don't understand the concept of meaning. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Makes sense for someone who doesn't understand what truth is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To DEFINE what a {Thing} is, you either need to define it in >>>>>>>> terms of a collection of all its sub-componets  (which gives you >>>>>>>> a circular definition >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So a dog has a tongue and the tongue is comprised of cells >>>>>>> and the cells are comprised of dog? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Try and provide a complete concrete example that is not nonsense. >>>>>> >>>>>> But you are talking about RELATIONSHIPS and not DEFINITIONS. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine which says that >>>>> the objects of thought ... are divided into types, namely: >>>>> individuals, properties of individuals, relations between >>>>> individuals, properties of such relations, etc. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944 >>>>> >>>>> The above can be simplified to different types of relations >>>>> between types thus fully defining every term. >>>>> >>>> And without definitions for the terms in your tree, the tree means >>>> nothing. >>>> >>> >>> There are nodes and types of relations between nodes everything >>> else is explicitly defined. >> >> And how are the nodes defined? WITHIN THE SYSTEM >> > > There are nodes that have unique GUIDs. Having a GUID does not assign meaning to the node, it makes it unique. > There are types of paths that have unique GUIDs for each path type. > There are connections between nodes using paths. Which says we can establish specific paths, but doesn't assign MEANING to the node. > > That the essence of the > Cyc knowledge ontology / simple type hierarchy. So, it seems, by YOUR description, Cyc knowledge ontology doesn't actually know the meaning of anything in its database, > >>> >>>> It could just as easily had all the words replace with non-sense >>>> items like {type-1}, {type-2}, {type-3}, ... which means it tells >>>> you nothing about what you want to know. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> The Cyc project does just that with its GUIDs and it works >>> just fine. >> >> That tells us which of several meanings to use, but not what those ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========