Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Frank Krygowski Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: Commuter innovation Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 22:01:35 -0400 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 110 Message-ID: References: <5bDPN.317238$Gp2.291779@fx04.ams4> Reply-To: frkrygow@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 02:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="85bde173ceee00b70813be88d22d4cc6"; logging-data="1178508"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19/fc5Dz6KNchApuj4W9zhC/loPGVh9/Ao=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:MTN6/fV9DMB9aZi/KPS5PujaqrI= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 7337 On 4/4/2024 7:52 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: > Frank Krygowski wrote: >> On 4/4/2024 3:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: >>> Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>> On 4/4/2024 7:48 AM, Zen Cycle wrote: >>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not cherry picking. Regarding bad design or bad maintenance, I'm >>>>>> describing what I've seen and what data has revealed in countless cities. >>>>> >>>>> You cherry picked one article that you thought supported your position, >>>>> and as Jeff pointed out, the article didn't do a very good job of it. If >>>>> you're relating 'data from countless cities', we have yet to see any >>>>> evidence of it. >>>> >>>> My main position is that no amount of bike infrastructure will get a >>>> significant number of Americans to switch from cars to bikes. Here's >>>> evidence: >>>> https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/LAB_Where_We_Ride_2016.pdf >>>> >>>> When Phoenix's 0.6% bike mode share gets it ranked among "Cities with >>>> the most bicyclists," that says a lot. >>>> >>>> Statewise, in that 2016 data Oregon led with 1.7%. But that's probably >>>> dropped since, because it was dominated by Portland, where cycling has >>>> recently dropped sharply. A typical state's bike mode share is 0.4% >>>> >>>>>> The fundamental fact is, so few people are interested in ditching >>>>>> their cars that it's foolish for municipal governments to spend real >>>>>> money on either design or maintenance. Funds are limited and budgets >>>>>> are real, so corners are cut. >>>>>> >>>>>> And about design: Many starry-eyed facility advocates say "It's so >>>>>> easy!" But totally separate bike paths are impossible in almost all >>>>>> locations, because commercial land (i.e. where people actually need to >>>>>> go) is already owned by someone, and is very valuable. There are rare >>>>>> exceptions (apparently your embankment is one), but pretending that's >>>>>> somehow normal is blatant cherry picking. >>>>> >>>>> It's neither rare, nor an exception, nor cherry picking from Rogers >>>>> experience, and is well supported by the many other Europeans who post >>>>> in this forum describing the government run infrastructure supporting >>>>> bike lane use, _successfully_. >>>> >>>> There are European successes, particularly in flat northern cities with >>>> mild climate and high density, leading to very short average trips. As I >>>> recall, the typical Amsterdam bike ride stretches about three miles and >>>> takes something like 20 minutes. The typical American commute is around >>>> 20 miles one way and averages about half an hour by car. >>>> >>>> There are also European failures. There are the English "new towns" like >>>> Stevenage designed specifically to make cycling super convenient, but >>>> where cars still dominate. And there's a fairly vocal British contingent >>>> who say "Why can't we be like Amsterdam???" (Britain overall has just a >>>> 2% bike mode share.) >>>> >>> That is quite a good cherry picking example “new towns” are post 2nd world >>> war and very car centric, the cycleways are largely rambling ie far from >>> direct, but the main aim was to be car centric. >> >> Hmm. ISTM that any example of bikeway failure is now being called >> "cherry picking"! >> >> Yes, those towns were post-WW2 designs. The design was intended to match >> or exceed what was being done in Netherlands, with the expectation that >> the ridership would match or exceed Netherlands. IOW, they designed >> according to contemporary "state of the art." But since it was still >> easier for folks to drive cars, they drove cars. >> https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/19/britains-1960s-cycling-revolution-flopped-stevenage >> > I was somewhat harsh on Stevenage in that it did and to some extent still > does have a direct cycleways but it absolutely was built with high capacity > ie big wide urban roads which encourage car use. On the main road london to > Scotland that it now is fairly obvious that it would become so car centric > or rather not a mini Amsterdam "... now fairly obvious" using 20:20 hindsight. But it proves one of my points: It's not (usually? ever?) possible to have high bike mode share unless there are policies or conditions that actively dissuade car use. > >> Now: How do we decide what is and is not "cherry picking"? >> >> For example, can we stop talking about the London Embankment? Can we >> stop touting a city where Apple, Inc. resides and contributes heavily to >> facilities? Can we stop pretending the entire world is just like >> Amsterdam except for bike lanes? >> >> Perhaps we should lay out a definition of a Typical City, and see what >> differences in transportation mode share bike infrastructure has made in >> only cities that meet that definition. >> > London is many times larger than Amsterdam or Youngstown, and as such has > different infrastructure, there is reason that it was london where the > first first underground trains where opened, or why no one would choose to > drive into central unless they had a really good reason, and why the cycle > network has largely at least the 21st century stuff has been on the direct > routes, be that the embankment to Chiswick high road. Ie folks need direct > routes as they are cycling a fair distance. The question remains: What cities will qualify for the "not cherry picking" label? In America, I think I can find well over 50 that have pretty good bike facility networks, but bike mode shares under 1%. -- - Frank Krygowski