Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: moviePig Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv Subject: Re: Snopes Finally Debunks Left-Wing Claim of "Very Fine People" in Charlottesville Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 11:58:39 -0400 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 150 Message-ID: References: <17ddc2e97a47e23a$169216$916931$50d51a61@news.newsdemon.com> <17dde2497ab63c19$847$1235238$4cd50660@news.newsdemon.com> <17de0be1d14f55c0$349849$705664$48d50260@news.newsdemon.com> Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:58:41 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="78c0598f98189ff95de43449adae1028"; logging-data="1202131"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+GjGJC6mm1F/WK3gX14eamMfyt1K7Vjnw=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:ybdCMzlsNgG6Rg1HlTWRAmBwLck= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <17de0be1d14f55c0$349849$705664$48d50260@news.newsdemon.com> Bytes: 8160 On 7/1/2024 5:12 AM, trotsky wrote: > On 6/30/24 4:12 PM, moviePig wrote: >> On 6/30/2024 4:30 PM, trotsky wrote: >>> On 6/30/24 11:29 AM, moviePig wrote: >>>> On 6/30/2024 6:55 AM, trotsky wrote: >>>>> On 6/29/24 12:15 PM, moviePig wrote: >>>>>> On 6/29/2024 1:01 PM, moviePig wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/29/2024 12:22 PM, trotsky wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/28/24 5:22 PM, moviePig wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/28/2024 5:10 PM, shawn wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 19:39:52 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> BTR1701 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's seven years after the fact and the damage has long >>>>>>>>>>>> since been done, but >>>>>>>>>>>> the left-wing fact checkers at Snopes have finally come out >>>>>>>>>>>> and admitted the >>>>>>>>>>>> whole claim that Trump called neo-Nazis "very fine people" >>>>>>>>>>>> was a hoax. I have >>>>>>>>>>>> no idea why, but credit where it's due, I suppose? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Eh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's another example of the more Trump talked, the more he >>>>>>>>>>> buried >>>>>>>>>>> himself. There was no way for him to win. He should have >>>>>>>>>>> ignored it, or >>>>>>>>>>> limited his comments to condemning the murder. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't put the "let's go beat up Nazis" counterprotestors on >>>>>>>>>>> a high >>>>>>>>>>> moral plane. As far as I could tell, the protestors on both >>>>>>>>>>> sides had >>>>>>>>>>> pretty low morals. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've personally objected to the removal of Civil War >>>>>>>>>>> monuments making >>>>>>>>>>> the generals god-like, but MY reason is rather different than >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> neo-Nazis: I don't think the modern generation should be >>>>>>>>>>> re-writing >>>>>>>>>>> history. A past generation erected those monuments and we >>>>>>>>>>> need to look >>>>>>>>>>> the ugliness of American history square in the face so we >>>>>>>>>>> never forget >>>>>>>>>>> that Civil War generals were honored by certain Americans for >>>>>>>>>>> the modern >>>>>>>>>>> politics of that era. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People are worried about those statues glorifying the actions >>>>>>>>>> of those >>>>>>>>>> people. I don't think the reasons behind the erecting of the >>>>>>>>>> statues >>>>>>>>>> or the timing is brought up that often. Certainly I never knew >>>>>>>>>> growing >>>>>>>>>> up the time frame for the erecting of the statues or the actual >>>>>>>>>> reasons behind it. It would be better to have kept the statues >>>>>>>>>> and put >>>>>>>>>> more effort into teaching the history behind their erection. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Not that I think it would change things as it seems most >>>>>>>>>> people forget >>>>>>>>>> what little bit of history they get taught in school not long >>>>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>>>> leaving school. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I despite prettying up history. Trump was still wrong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Agreed. History is full of ugly moments that are best >>>>>>>>>> remembered in >>>>>>>>>> the hopes that we don't repeat them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A descriptive plaque with any such statue would seem to be so >>>>>>>>> obvious a solution that you have to wonder if both sides >>>>>>>>> vehemently oppose it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We don't need statues to learn history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In fact, these statues seem to be about forgetting it... >>>>>> >>>>>> Also: my point is that, even if Trump had said verbatim "Nazis are >>>>>> fine people", it'd be defensible as a (non-Freudian) slip of the >>>>>> tongue ...because Trump simply isn't suicidal.  And, trying to >>>>>> indict him on such weak claims only undercuts the many strong ones. >>>>> >>>>> None of what you said has anything to do with the facts in evidence. >>>> >>>> The fact is that even if there were a video of Trump saying "Nazis >>>> are fine people" (which, afaik, there isn't) it would beggar >>>> plausibility. >>> >>> >>> He said there are fine people on both sides.  Why don't you get what >>> the discussion is about? >> >> Yes, but the two sides weren't "Nazis" and "non-Nazis".  (Yes, I know >> that all the Nazis were on only one of the sides.) > > > The topic was neo-Nazis.  This is exhausting. > > > Reporter: "Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the > alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?" > > Trump: "I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is > this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other, and > they came at each other with clubs -- and it was vicious and it was > horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch. > > "But there is another side. There was a group on this side. You can call > them the left -- you just called them the left -- that came violently > attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the > way it is. > > Reporter: (Inaudible) "… both sides, sir. You said there was hatred, > there was violence on both sides. Are the --" > > Trump: "Yes, I think there’s blame on both sides. If you look at both > sides -- I think there’s blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about > it, and you don’t have any doubt about it either. And if you reported it > accurately, you would say." > > Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville > to protest --" > > Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had > some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were > very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse > me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in > that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a > very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. > Lee to another name." Yes, a strict reading of that transcript has Trump speaking well of "some neo-Nazis". But I don't see that the discourse is consistent enough to support such rigor. (Few exchanges are, especially Trump's.) E.g., note that at first the "sides" are alt-Left vs. white supremacists, and later become statue-protesters vs. statue-defenders. (And again, even if Trump had said "Nazis are fine people", I'd bet he simply misspoke -- because he's not suicidal.)