Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail
From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Phillip Johnson wiki
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 08:26:42 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 179
Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org
Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org
Message-ID: <vav5mg$118ma$1@dont-email.me>
References: <vaoi4q$3ma1s$1@dont-email.me> <vap7r1$3sqo2$1@dont-email.me>
 <vapt1g$3vtd8$1@dont-email.me> <varbc8$b44p$1@dont-email.me>
 <vartk3$djnu$1@dont-email.me> <vasoqn$hs5k$1@dont-email.me>
 <vav4g2$10vlv$1@dont-email.me>
Reply-To: rokimoto557@gmail.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89";
	logging-data="2861"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Cancel-Lock: sha1:qpslxW/HpfyjtYL2RPfSMAO4KyY=
In-Reply-To: <vav4g2$10vlv$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
	FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,
	FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLYTO_END_DIGIT,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,
	NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED,
	RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,
	T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
	version=3.4.6
	smtp.eternal-september.org
Bytes: 11980

On 8/31/2024 8:06 AM, RonO wrote:
> On 8/30/2024 10:34 AM, RonO wrote:
>> On 8/30/2024 2:50 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-30 02:39:01 +0000, Chris Thompson said:
>>>
>>>> RonO wrote:
>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:26 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-29 01:16:08 +0000, RonO said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_E._Johnson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Earlier this month I noted that someone had remove the Johnson 
>>>>>>> capitulation quote from the Johnson wiki.  There seems to be no 
>>>>>>> valid reason for removing the quote, and Athel claimed that he 
>>>>>>> had emailed the editor that made the edit to see what was going 
>>>>>>> on.  I guess nothing has come of the request.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. I had a back-and-forth discussion with the editor in question, 
>>>>>> mainly consisting of me suggesting a wording that he would accept 
>>>>>> and refrain from editing it back to what it was. He objected to 
>>>>>> all of these, except the last, which he hasn't replied to. I 
>>>>>> thought I'd leave it a month and then fix it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you do not get this guys buy in, can he just remove it again? 
>>>>> What were his reasons for removing a perfectly valid quote, and 
>>>>> Johnson's admission about the ID scam when Johnson never retracted 
>>>>> what he had said.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the previous thread I note other people using the quote 
>>>>> including Ken Miller in a public presentation, and I do not recall 
>>>>> any blow back from Johnson.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's instructive to look at Laurence Moran's attempts to correct 
>>>> Wikipedia on the subject of junk DNA. A long-term editor/contributor 
>>>> (who is not a biologist/chemist/biochemist) to Wikipedia put up a 
>>>> ream of garbage on the topic and Larry rewrote it. The editor 
>>>> deleted Moran's work and put his own back up. They went around a few 
>>>> times but of course Larry's expertise meant nothing and the 
>>>> buffoon's seniority at Wikipedia meant everything.
>>>>
>>>> If the person who changed the Johnson page is someone with an ax to 
>>>> grind and has been at Wikipedia for any length of time, it's 
>>>> probably useless to try to present anything (s)he doesn't like.
>>>
>>> In his User Page, GuardianH describes himself as follows:
>>>
>>> "I'm an American high school student from Massachusetts with a 
>>> passion in history, philosophy, and law along with an additional 
>>> interest pertaining to sociology and higher education. I write and 
>>> edit primarily on topics concerning constitutional law and legal 
>>> scholarship."
>>>
>>> No obvious expertise in Intelligent Design, therefore, but he has 
>>> been a very active editor, with more than 40000 contributions to 
>>> Wikipedia. I'm not sure he has an axe to grind, but he's just stuck 
>>> his heels in.
>>>
>>
>> In the transcript of Judgement day intelligent design on trial Johnson 
>> admits something similar in that he admits that change isn't going to 
>> happen in his lifetime, and the "force of the counter-attack" is a 
>> reference to the real science and supporting biological evolution.  
>> This force just made him admit that nothing that they had was 
>> comparable. Johnson sat through every day of testimony to come to his 
>> conclusion. There was no comparison between the scientific theory of 
>> biological evolution, and the untestable hypothesis that was 
>> intelligent design.
>>
>> QUOTE:
>> PHILLIP JOHNSON: I had thought, at one point, that we would make a 
>> breakthrough on this issue and change the scientific community in my 
>> lifetime. Now I'm somewhat sobered by the force of the counter-attack 
>> that we have received. And I see that it's going to be a longer 
>> process than that.
>> END QUOTE:
>>
>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/judgment-day-intelligent-design- 
>> on- trial/
>>
>> I usually use two quotes from the Berkeley Science Review article
>>
>> QUOTE:
>> I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent
>> design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative
>> to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might
>> contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design
>> theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job
>> of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement.
>> Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for
>> them to prove…No product is ready for competition in the educational
>> world.
>> END QUOTE:
>>
>> QUOTE:
>> For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any
>> efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are
>> just not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change 
>> things in the public schools generate more powerful opposition than 
>> accomplish anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at 
>> all.”
>>
>> “In some respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and
>> glad. I think the issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that 
>> the public schools are not going to change their line in my lifetime. 
>> That isn’t to me where the action really is and ought to be.”
>> END QUOTE:
>>
>> Johnson never retracted these statements, and I do not recall him 
>> supporting the teach ID scam after Dover.  What your editor needs to 
>> do is find some retraction or later statement where Johnson changed 
>> his mind.
>>
>> Johnson did make the claim that the judge should not have ruled about 
>> whether ID was science or not (though he admitted that ID was not 
>> comparable to the science backing biological evolution) but that was a 
>> stupid claim since both sides requested that the Judge rule on the 
>> matter.  The creationists wanted the ruling because the Supreme court 
>> had already stated that any valid science supporting creationism could 
>> be taught in the public schools, but what was then available was not 
>> considered to be valid science.  Intelligent design was just warmed 
>> over creationist stupidity.  The Top Six best evidences for ID were 
>> all god- of-the-gaps denial used by the scientific creationists, and 
>> the Supreme Court had stated that just because there was no current 
>> scientific explanation for something, that was not evidence for 
>> creationism.
>>
>> Ron Okimoto
> 
> Maybe you could word the entry something like this:
> 
> Kitxmiller v. Dover Area School District changed Johnson's mind about 
> the viability of the Wedge strategy of teaching intelligent design in 
> the public schools within his lifetime.  Johnson attended every day of 
> courtroom testimony.  In the PBS video Judgement Day: Intellgent Design 
> on Trial Johnson states "I had thought, at one point, that we would make 
> a breakthrough on this issue and change the scientific community in my 
> lifetime. Now I'm somewhat sobered by the force of the counter-attack 
> that we have received. And I see that it's going to be a longer process 
> than that." [Transcript link above for reference].  In another interview 
> post Kitzmiller Johnson elaborated admitting that no comparable 
> intelligent design science existed that could be taught, and that this 
> likely was not going to change within his lifetime.
> 
> QUOTE:
> I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========