Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 08:58:27 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 215 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 15:58:28 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="f5540fbd60b9a9e7d5f7c4b40526c50b"; logging-data="3511243"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+qq6LOVmqsNGcyg7fNv7p1" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:aOdlYkpvPT0uGU5IwE450heppc8= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 11344 On 9/3/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-09-02 13:31:23 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott: >>>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reference >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5d         pop ebp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the x86 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get past >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You use it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an >>>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified >>>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply >>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, >>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems >>>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts" instead. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if >>>>>>>>>>>> this HHH >>>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD. >>>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input >>>>>>>>>>> of a >>>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning >>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not >>>>>>>>> suddenly change when the aborting occurs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD >>>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that >>>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating >>>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given >>>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that >>>>>>> this has halting behaviour. >>>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it. >>>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator >>>>>>> tells us that the program has a halting behaviour. >>>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before >>>>>>> it can see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is >>>>>>> non- halting. >>>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class >>>>>>> simulator, not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what >>>>>>> the world class simulator predicts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS >>>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie. >>>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory. >>>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he >>>>>>> knows are true. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 >>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp >>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret >>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _main() >>>>>>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp >>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp >>>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04 >>>>>>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax >>>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743 >>>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762 >>>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08 >>>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax >>>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp >>>>>>>> [000021b3] c3         ret >>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly >>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language >>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  ============= >>>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin >>>>>>>> main() >>>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; >>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 >>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored >>>>>>>> at:1138cc >>>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; >>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; >>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec >>>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; >>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; >>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion? >>>>>> >>>>>> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree >>>>>> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven >>>>>> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four >>>>>> instructions of DDD. ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========