Path: ...!news.nobody.at!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: John Harshman Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:38:56 -0700 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 348 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: <2e5n3j1u9a0pdcmpd4m78l2dssq3kns552@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="79439"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id B23C6229870; Mon, 20 May 2024 15:40:15 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A6B22986E for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 15:40:13 -0400 (EDT) id 6FE455DC4B; Mon, 20 May 2024 19:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by mod-relay-1.kamens.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629755DC40 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 19:40:29 +0000 (UTC) by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3F0602D2 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 19:38:16 +0000 (UTC) by serv-2.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5A3440697 for ; Mon, 20 May 2024 14:38:57 -0500 (CDT) by serv-2.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 44KJcvuP005332; Mon, 20 May 2024 14:38:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-2.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 19:38:56 +0000 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 22505 On 5/20/24 10:49 AM, Ron Dean wrote: > John Harshman wrote: >> On 5/19/24 3:27 PM, Ron Dean wrote: >>> John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 5/18/24 8:41 PM, Ron Dean wrote: >>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote: >>>>>>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slave trading North. This is rarely mentioned in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history. And of course, history is written by the victors. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tariffs imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to slavery. In fact slavery as a issue did not exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until 2 years after the start of the war. It was raised >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Lincoln only after Great Brittan showed an interested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in entering into the war on the side of the South. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery was then made a moral issue, which deterred >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britten, which earlier had outlawed slave trading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lengthy-but-ever-expanding list of topics about which you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blather sans knowledge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so immediately after gaining independence from Britain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there would be no hope of forming a single nation. That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't stop them from fighting about slavery (and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> viciously at times) in the Constitutional Convention of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1787- rather a fair bit of time before the 1858 point in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time you assert (idiotically) people all of a sudden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became concerned with slavery. And at that Convention a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution was passed that the international slave trade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be banned in the US in 1800. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state and Maine as a free state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> included, shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do much to inflame tensions between north and south. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disaster now called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of John Brown, and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Harper's Ferry? No? Not surprising if you think no one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cared about slavery until two years before the Civil War. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was. Slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're all available. Without fail, they all inform us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the reason they are seceding is slavery. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> war; it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Negro") that relegates them to their lot as slaves. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> War is especially disgusting. Stop it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern >>>>>>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iealsewhere. Northerners were the slavers that built slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ships and manufactured goods for trading and Northern >>>>>>>>>>>>>> merchants traded with native people for slaves. It was not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern farmers going to Africa for invading the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continent for slaves, but they bought slaves from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> northern merchant. In fact my ggggrandfather (3) gfathers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a slave.  This also applies to most African- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was raped, and he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not that I'm proud >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this part of my ancestory. But I have had life, which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise I would not have had. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not have had life, nor life in the US. Would my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> father and mother ever have met except for WWII - not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely.   The point is we don't always have control over >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the events that happened, and often tragedies that happen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can have positive outcomes for some of us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> for one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your >>>>>>>>>>>>> family history, and even if it's true, I don't care. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial >>>>>>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find >>>>>>>>>>>>> even a shitty apologist historian to support your >>>>>>>>>>>>> disgusting racist bullshit? As for your second reference, >>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a passage from near the end (did you read anything >>>>>>>>>>>>> besides the title? Your scholarship is matched evenly with >>>>>>>>>>>>> your honesty- both are in the sewer): >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cobden and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tariff had been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========