Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 -- Ben agrees that Sipser approved criteria is met Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 08:35:04 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 119 Message-ID: References: <87jzidm83f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5nSdnSkMN76jIOH7nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 15:35:05 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="d7b6b7ddfe8775f34f568700240d9d1b"; logging-data="2888981"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+1putWv2x/5DC2Tf3lqhWr" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:2hfqHG12sDwQlC93jXu4cVd/90s= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 5879 On 6/27/2024 6:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 6/26/24 11:34 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 6/26/2024 10:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 6/26/24 10:51 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> >>>> Is disabled. It is commented out. >>>> It was only ever used so that humans could see the depth. >>> >>> But, if it can measure the fact that this is the top level decider, >>> that means that it sees something that it can't know. >>> >> >> The top level decider simply reaches its infinite >> recursion behavior pattern first. It need not know >> that it is first. >> > > But it if abortts, then the pattern ISN'T infinite recursion, void Infinite_Recursion() { Infinite_Recursion(); } It is the exact same code that recognizes this as non-halting SO IT IS THE INFINITE RECURSION BEHAVIOR PATTERN AS A MATTER OF FACT. > as a > correct emulation of the code it was emulating will have finite behaivior. > void Infinite_Loop() { HERE: goto HERE; } Only in the same way and for the same reason that Infinite_Loop() and Infinite_Recursion() have finite behavior. H0 stops simulating them because it correctly determines that they would not otherwise stop. > You can't have an infinite level of recursion in a finite number of steps. > > Your problem is your emulator doesn't look at the program it is actually > given, but thinks of it as something different. > Liar. > Remember, either it can't look past the call instruction as there is > nothing there to look at, or the code after the call instruction is part > of the input, and thus you can't think about changing it and still > having the same input. > Unless the outermost H0(DDD) aborts none of them do. The outermost one reaches its abort criteria one recursive emulation before the next one. > >>> EVERY level of dicider should think that it is, or at least could be, >>> the top level, as it can't know any differently. >>> >> That Is how they work. > > Then why isn't that what your traces show? > The traces do show that, they are simply above your degree of technical competence. > A why does the comment ask about at the global top, since any one > decider doesn't know where it > SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES >> >>>> >>>>>> a decider shouldn't be >>>>> able to know that it isn't the top level decider. >>>> >>>> This doesn't have any effect on its computation thus irrelevant. >>>> >>> >>> It does if it knows that it isn't being simulated, which is knowledge >>> that no simulated machine is allowed to have, as that means the >>> simulation isn't correct. BY DEFINITION. >> >> It only knows this to decide whether to call Allocate >> or not. It never uses this for anything else. >> > > Why does that make a difference? Each level needs to allocate the buffer > in its own memory space for it to use. > > If they share a buffer, that is improper state sharing. That is the way that ALL UTMs work knucklehead. UTMs cannot possibly operate in any other way. Message-ID: On 3/1/2024 12:41 PM, Mike Terry wrote: > > Obviously a simulator has access to the > internal state (tape contents etc.) of the > simulated machine. No problem there. > -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer