Path: ...!news.misty.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: joes <noreply@example.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: A state transition diagram proves ... GOOD PROGRESS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:10:05 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <00bf3eb3a01c08467b34e8d7e99ca3fa193aa531@i2pn2.org>
References: <ves6p1$2uoln$1@dont-email.me>
	<3232d8a0cc7b5d4bba46321bf682c94573bf1b7c@i2pn2.org>
	<vesemu$2v7sh$1@dont-email.me>
	<a9fb95eb0ed914d0d9775448c005111eb43f2c5b@i2pn2.org>
	<veslpf$34ogr$1@dont-email.me>
	<647fe917c6bc0cfc78083ccf927fe280acdf2f9d@i2pn2.org>
	<vetq7u$3b8r2$1@dont-email.me>
	<d8006439ae02f55ba148e6be1f8c4787905a999f@i2pn2.org>
	<veu30q$3cqfo$1@dont-email.me>
	<0280e32ff3acd1fff59f9637f14bf309150878b4@i2pn2.org>
	<veu4rl$3ct1e$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:10:05 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="2553830"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="nS1KMHaUuWOnF/ukOJzx6Ssd8y16q9UPs1GZ+I3D0CM";
User-Agent: Pan/0.145 (Duplicitous mercenary valetism; d7e168a
 git.gnome.org/pan2)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Bytes: 5300
Lines: 74

Am Fri, 18 Oct 2024 12:11:17 -0500 schrieb olcott:
> On 10/18/2024 12:00 PM, joes wrote:
>> Am Fri, 18 Oct 2024 11:39:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 10/18/2024 9:41 AM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:10:04 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 10/18/2024 6:17 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/17/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/17/2024 10:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/17/24 9:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/17/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/17/24 7:31 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by HHH according to the
>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 language DDD cannot possibly reach its
>>>>>>>>>>> own machine address [00002183] no matter what HHH does.
>>>>>>>>>>> +-->[00002172]-->[00002173]-->[00002175]-->[0000217a]--+
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Except that 0000217a doesn't go to 00002172, but to 000015d2
>>>>
>>>>>> The Emulating HHH sees those addresses at its begining and then
>>>>>> never again.
>>>>>> Then the HHH that it is emulating will see those addresses, but not
>>>>>> the outer one that is doing that emulation of HHH.
>>>>>> And so on.
>>>>>> Which HHH do you think EVER gets back to 00002172?
>>>>>> What instruction do you think that it emulates that would tell it
>>>>>> to do so?
>>>>>> At best the trace is:
>>>>>> 00002172 00002173 00002175 0000217a conditional emulation of
>>>>>> 00002172 conditional emulation of 00002173 conditional emulation of
>>>>>> 00002175 conditional emulation of 0000217a CE of CE of 00002172 ...
>>>>> OK great this is finally good progress.
>>>> The more interesting part is HHH simulating itself, specifically the
>>>> if(Root) check on line 502.
>>> That has nothing to do with any aspect of the emulation until HHH has
>>> correctly emulated itself emulating DDD.
>> What? That is part of HHH, not DDD.
> Until if (root) is true it has no effect on DDD emulated by HHH.
The existence of the check has an effect right from the start;
besides, it is true the first time it is executed.

>>>>> Message-ID: <rLmcnQQ3-N_tvH_4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
>>>>> On 3/1/2024 12:41 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>    > Obviously a simulator has access to the internal state (tape
>>>>>    > contents etc.) of the simulated machine. No problem there.
>>>>> This seems to indicate that the Turing machine UTM version of HHH
>>>>> can somehow see each of the state transitions of the DDD resulting
>>>>> from emulating its own Turing machine description emulating DDD.
>>>> Of course. It needs to, in order to simulate it. Strictly speaking it
>>>> has no idea of its simulation of a simulation two levels down, only
>>>> of the immediate simulation; the rest is just part of whatever
>>>> program the simulated simulator is simulating, which happens to be
>>>> itself.
>>>   From the concrete execution trace of DDD emulated by HHH
>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language people with sufficient
>>> technical competence can see that the halt status criteria that
>>> professor Sipser agreed to has been met.
>>>       If emulating termination analyzer HHH emulates its input DDD
>>>       until HHH determines that its emulated DDD would never stop
>>>       running unless aborted ...
>> But it would.

>>>>> *Joes can't seem to understand this*
>>>>> Only the outer-most HHH meets its abort criteria first, thus unless
>>>>> it aborts as soon as it meets this criteria none of them will ever
>>>>> abort.
>>>> This is very simple to understand. Almost as simple as: even if only
>>>> the outermost HHH didn't abort, it would still halt,
>>> Yet that is based on the factually incorrect assumption that every
>>> instance of HHH does not use the exact same machine code.
>> Same as the outer HHH returning that the inner ones wouldn't.

-- 
Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.