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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1 ---
 STA
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 07:12:45 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 4/1/25 10:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/1/2025 8:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/1/25 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2025 5:09 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 01.apr.2025 om 04:19 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 3/31/2025 8:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/31/25 8:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/31/25 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 5:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/25 2:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/2025 3:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 31.mrt.2025 om 05:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 9:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 10:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 7:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 4:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/25 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/2025 8:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.mrt.2025 om 04:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 8:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/25 6:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 5:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:14 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:26 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 2:06 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 10:23 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:00 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It defines that it must compute the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the direct execution of a Turing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which does not require tracing an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual running TM, only mapping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties of the TM described. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key fact that you continue to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dishonestly ignore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the concrete counter-example that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I provided that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusively proves that the finite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string of machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code input is not always a valid 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy for the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the underlying virtual machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, you deny the concept 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a UTM, which can take a description 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of any Turing machine and exactly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduce the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I deny that a pathological relationship 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between a UTM and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its input can be correctly ignored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In such a case, the UTM will not halt, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and neither will the input when executed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not impossible to adapt a UTM such 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulates a finite number of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps of an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) then you no longer have a UTM, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statements about a UTM don't apply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can know that when this adapted UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite number of steps of its input that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps were simulated correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And therefore does not do a correct UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation that matches the behavior of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct execution as it is incomplete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is dishonest to expect non-terminating 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inputs to complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An input that halts when executed directly is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not non- terminating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) changing the input is not allowed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input is unchanged. There never was any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that the input was in any way 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> False, if the starting function calls UTM 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and UTM changes, you're changing the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When UTM1 is a UTM that has been adapted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only simulate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a finite number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And is therefore no longer a UTM that does a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct and complete simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and input D calls UTM1 then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D simulated by UTM1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is not what I asked about.  I asked about the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of D when executed directly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Off topic for this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM1 D DOES NOT HALT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UTM2 D HALTS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D is the same finite string in both cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it isn't, not if it is the definition of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROGRAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior that these machine code bytes specify:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 558bec6872210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as an input to HHH is different than these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same bytes as input to HHH1 as a verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or, are you admitting you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of a program?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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