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From: Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Top three reasons for optimism about the ID scam
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 18:57:27 +0000
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On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:52:31 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/3/2024 8:20 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:08:28 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>>>
>>> My take is that most Christians no longer fear God in this way.  It is
>>> why most Catholics are just fine with the Heliocentric heresy.
>>> Heliocentrism was never removed as a heresy in the Church.
>> 
>> It was never removed as a heresy because it never was a heresy. You
>> have been told that multiple times, yet you persist in stating it.
>
>This is absolutely wrong because of the last major fuss about the issue 
>where it turned out that heliocentrism was only a minor heresy at the 
>time that Bruno was executed.  It was not the reason for his execution, 
>but was one of the heresies that he was found guilty of.  

Your memory serves you badly or else you just can't accept having your
ass handed to you as Burkhard did the last time you argued this.

>We found out 

Who is this "we" ? It certainly doesn't include me and I don't know
who else it includes.

>that it wasn't made into a capital heresy until the protestants started 
>to make it an issue claiming that the church was being too soft on the 
>heretics.  When Galileo was charged with the heresy it carried the death 
>penalty.
>
>Even the Bruno sources claimed that it was one of the things Bruno was 
>found guilty of, but was not what he was executed for.
>
>> 
>>> It was only
>>> down graded, to a more minor heresy
>> 
>> There is no such thing as a "minor" heresy. There are degrees of
>> heresy including one of being *suspected* of heresy which was what
>> Galile was charged with.
>
>Apparently there is because the heliocentric heresy was only down graded 
>to such a minor heresy in the 19th century, and was never dropped as a 
>heresy by the church.  We found that out in the last major dust up.  The 
>source that was put up then had the conclaves cited that had made the 
>decisions, and the dates.  As laughable as it may seem, the evidence was 
>discounted by your side because the article was written by a 
>conservative catholic priest who was a geocentrist.  

Taking an unnamed geocentric priest as an authoritative source for
Catholic Church is indeed laughable.

>What you need to do 
>is determine that those conclaves never happened and those decisions 
>were never made.

*You* are the one making the claims, *you* are the one who needs to
produce evidence - and it needs to be better than an unnamed priest or
a Wiki article.

>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#:~:text=Galileo's%20opinions%20were%20met%20with,to%20be%20%22formally%20heretical%22.
>
>"Galileo's opinios were met with opposition within the Catholic Church, 
>and in 1616 the Inquisition declared heliocentrism to be "formally 
>heretical".

>Galileo faced the death penalty when he was tried in 1633.

No, he didn't.

>
>The conservative Catholic source that was put up before noted that it 
>was the influence of the protestants that forced the issue that resulted 
>in Galileo being investigated by the church for his views, and cited the 
>conclave and date for the upgrade of the heresy.  That same source cited 
>the conclave in the 1800's that downgraded the heresy back to what it 
>was before Galileo.  That source claimed that heliocentrism remained 
>heretical.  It was obviously something worth finding Bruno guilty of and 
>investigating Galileo for before it became a heresy punishable by death. 
>  The Bruno sources claimed that Bruno had been found guilty of the 
>heresy, but that it did not hold the death penalty at that time that 
>supported the conservative Catholic priest's account.  It was some type 
>of lesser transgression before it was upgraded.

I told you before that when you want to find out the Church's position
on something, you should turn to the Church's own documentation, not
some unnamed renegade geocentric priest or what someone put up on
Wikipedia; your reliance on sources like that is a pretty clear case
of confirmation bias.
..
Here is what the Church does say:

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

<quote>

As to the second trial in 1633, this was concerned not so much with
the doctrine as with the person of Galileo, and his manifest breach of
contract in not abstaining from the active propaganda of Copernican
doctrines. The sentence, passed upon him in consequence, clearly
implied a condemnation of Copernicanism, but it made no formal decree
on the subject, and did not receive the pope's signature. Nor is this
only an opinion of theologians; it is corroborated by writers whom
none will accuse of any bias in favour of the papacy. Thus Professor
Augustus De Morgan (Budget of Paradoxes) declares

'It is clear that the absurdity was the act of the Italian
Inquisition, for the private and personal pleasure of the pope - who
knew that the course he took could not convict him as pope - and not
of the body which calls itself the Church.'

And von Gebler ("Galileo Galilei"):

'The Church never condemned it (the Copernican system) at all, for the
Qualifiers of the Holy Office never mean the Church.'

It may be added that Riccioli and other contemporaries of Galileo were
permitted, after 1616, to declare that no anti-Copernican definition
had issued from the supreme pontiff.

</quote>


That is from the Catholic Encyclopedia, published in 1906, with the
approval of Pope Pius X who was noted for his opposition to Modernis,
a time when the Church was totally autocratic and not prone to
apologies for its actions so not some namby pamby recent attempt to
play down the wrongs that the Church did to Galileo; they treated him
very badly but the underlying issue was a clash between Galileo and
the Pope, not a matter of Church teaching 



>
>Ron Okimoto
>
>> 
>>> not punishable by the death penalty,
>>> in the 19th century.  It is why the Pope can come out in support of
>>> biological evolution, and most Christians don't care how old the earth
>>> is.  There is still a lot of fear-of-God involved in Christianity, but
>>> it doesn't have the strangle hold that it used to have.
>>>
>>> Laurie Lebo covered the Dover case and part of her story was her
>>> interactions with her father.  Her father supported the ID scam because
>>> of what he believed his god would do.  He wasn't bathing in the love and
>>> communion, but was in fear of hell's fire and damnation.
>>>
>>> Ron Okimoto
>>