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From: joes <noreply@example.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- ONE POINT AT A
 TIME
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 16:50:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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Am Tue, 18 Feb 2025 10:34:45 -0600 schrieb olcott:
> On 2/18/2025 7:48 AM, joes wrote:
>> Am Tue, 18 Feb 2025 07:37:54 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 2/18/2025 6:25 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/25 6:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 2/18/2025 3:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-02-17 09:05:42 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 4:30 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 15:58:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:02 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:24:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 10:35 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 06:51:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 12:40:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 2:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 00:07:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD  correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That claim has already shown to be false. Nothing above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows that HHH does not return 0. If it does DD also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we are referring to the above DD simulated by HHH and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to get away with changing the subject to some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other DD somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as one that calls a non-aborting version of HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then anyone with sufficient knowledge of C programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knows that no instance of DD shown above simulated by any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding instance of HHH can possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, then that corresponding (by what?) HHH isn’t a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on the isomorphic notion of a termination
>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>> (There are other deciders that are not termination analysers.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A simulating termination analyzer correctly rejects any input
>>>>>>>>>>>> that must be aborted to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in particular itself is not such an input, because we
>>>>>>>>>>> *know* that it halts, because it is a decider. You can’t have
>>>>>>>>>>> your cake and eat it too.
>>>>>>>>>> I am not even using the confusing term "halts".
>>>>>>>>>> Instead I am using in its place "terminates normally".
>>>>>>>>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>> What’s confusing about „halts”? I find it clearer as it does not
>>>>>>>>> imply an ambiguous „abnormal termination”. How does HHH simulate
>>>>>>>>> DD terminating abnormally, then? Why doesn’t it terminate
>>>>>>>>> abnormally itself?
>>>>>>>>> You can substitute the term: the input DD to HHH does not need
>>>>>>>>> to be aborted, because the simulated decider terminates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every simulated input that must be aborted to prevent the
>>>>>>>> non-termination of HHH is stipulated to be correctly rejected by
>>>>>>>> HHH as non-terminating.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A very strange and invalid stipulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It merely means that the words do not have their ordinary meaning.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Unless HHH(DD) aborts its simulation of DD itself cannot possibly
>>>>> terminate normally. Every expert in the C programming language can
>>>>> see this. People that are not experts get confused by the loop after
>>>>> the "if" statement.
>>>>>
>>>> So? Since it does that, it needs to presume that the copy of itself
>>>> it sees called does that.
>>>>
>>> Not at all.
>> I mean, this is a deterministic program without any static variables,
>> amirite?
>> 
> When I focus on one single-point:
> [D simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally]
> I get two years of dodging and this point is never addressed.
Way to derail.

> Since there is about a 7% chance that my very drastic cancer treatment
> will kill me in the next 100 days I must insist on 100% perfectly and
> completely addressing this point before moving on to any other points.
Oh right, I wanted to wait a month for your 5% chance. When exactly is it?

>>> Here is the point that you just missed Unless the first HHH that sees
>>> the non-terminating pattern aborts its simulation none of them do
>>> because they all have the exact same code.
-- 
Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.