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From: Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:23:51 +0000
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On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:02:21 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/13/2025 8:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by
>>>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims
>>>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is
>>>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately
>>>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment,
>>>>>>>> they are following it perfectly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped
>>>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>>>> Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about biological
>>>>>>> evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please give an example of that.
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You SNIPed it out.
>> 
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that
>>>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as
>>>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values
>>>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you
>>>> calling them liars?
>>>
>>> That obviously is not true.  Did you actually read what you snipped out?
>>>   What were their other core values?
>> 
>> 
>> Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier::
>> 
>> ====================================
>> 
>> QUOTE:
>> Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It
>> takes
>> the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and
>> it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has
>> made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things,
>> including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the
>> best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and
>> similarities of all life on Earth.
>> END QUOTE:
>> 
>> QUOTE:
>> The Identity of BioLogos
>> Core Values
>> Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith,
>> upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.
>> 
>> Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern
>> science,
>> celebrating the wonders of God's creation.
>> 
>> Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with
>> those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love.
>> END QUOTE:
>> 
>> ===============================================
>> 
>> Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were
>> involved in some of that evolution?
>
>They are like Behe and claiming that their god is needed to do a 
>specific thing that they claim the Bible tells them so.
>
>What do you not get?  The reasoning is no different from Behe claiming 
>that some god is needed to create the flagellum.
>
>
>> 
>>> They obviously have other feelings
>>> about what are not "established findings of modern science."
>> 
>> So what does it matter what they think about things outside of
>> science, how is that contradicting science?
>
>They are claiming that their understanding of science can be made to 
>conform to their literal interpretations of the Bible.  It is the same 
>claim that the ID perps make except they agree that biological evolution 
>is a fact of nature.  Some of them still think like Behe.
>
>> 
>>> Not only
>>> that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have
>>> not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and
>>> their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own
>>> image.
>> 
>> I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you
>> keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they
>> with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's
>> Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and
>> show how they don't stand up.
>
>How do you expect god to have made man in his own image without 
>tweeking?  They likely even differ in what they think image means.
>
>
>> 
>> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The example was in their description of what they
>>>>> believed.  They believe that the Bible is the "inspired and
>>>>> authroitative word of God" and "First, that God created all things,
>>>>> including human beings in his own image.".  You have to read their web
>>>>> site to learn that some of them are tweekers that claim that their god
>>>>> was involved in guiding the evolution of life on earth.
>>>>
>>>> I have read their web site and I see nothing anywhere about forcing
>>>> biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>> Biblical interpretation. Feel free to point it out if I have missed
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> You must have missed the part about tweekers,
>> 
>> It's a big site and I can't find anything about tweekers. Please quote
>> what they actually say or at least point me to the actual part of the
>> site where they say it.
>
> From the link that I originally put up:
>
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