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From: Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Job Offer
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2025 22:40:26 -0700
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 23:33:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/16/2025 4:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>  
>> Students don't attend college to learn much that will later be useful.
>> At best, students learn the basics.  ...
>> 
>> I'm not going to attempt to assign the blame or offer solutions for
>> the problem.  Well, maybe just a small attempt.  (Frank will probably
>> hate me).  Most colleges are designed to manufacture academics who
>> will eventually become teachers.  
>
>Perhaps that's true. I can't speak for "most colleges" and I have close 
>knowledge about only a few fields of study, based on my experiences, 
>those of my kids and siblings. IOW, a small sample. Engineering, 
>chemistry, computer science, nursing and poetry.
>
>So you may be correct about majors such as history, political science, 
>philosophy, art appreciation etc. But based on that small sample of 
>field I listed, I'd say you're wrong.
>
>About my program, you're 100% flat wrong about the "designed to 
>manufacture academics." As one piece of evidence, we rarely offered 
>junior and senior level courses in the daytime. Why? Because by the time 
>they were juniors, most of our students were already employed in their 
>field at least part time. That's largely why I ended up teaching so many 
>evening courses.

Ok, I'm wrong.  I guess things have changed when I wasn't watching.

"Education was once the No. 1 major for college students. Now it's an
afterthought."
<https://www.cbsnews.com/news/education-majors-colleges-decline-teacher-pay/>
"Even as the population of college students has increased by 150%
since 1970, the number of bachelor's degrees in education has
plummeted by almost 50% - a steeper drop than that for English,
literature and foreign language majors."

Or, maybe the college students I've known follow a different star. All
I have to offer is anecdotal evidence.  The San Lorenzo Valley tends
to attract students because it's a low income housing area.  Few of
them have jobs.  I'm a member of two local amateur radio clubs, and a
Linux computer club. These tend to attract UCSC students and
graduates.  I know two graduates who went on to obtain their
doctorates and are now doing some kind of teaching at UCSC.

>And to get specific: I developed our Robotics course and laboratory in 
>1986, when industrial robots were first beginning to surge. We used real 
>industrial robots (not laboratory toys or online virtual robots) and I 
>attended a robotics school along with a roomful of engineers from Ford. 
>I consulted with them about what our course should contain, and as 
>always I consulted with our Industrial Advisory Committee. One major 
>piece of advice was to NOT build a course on how to design robots, or 
>the details of the mathematical transforms used to control the robot's 
>many joints, etc. The advice was to put heavy emphasis on how to use a 
>purchased robot in practical ways to get a task done robotically. (As I 
>told my students: There may have been a few dozen engineers in the U.S 
>designing robots. There would probably be need for thousands of 
>engineers who knew how to use them.)
>
>And indeed, the wife of one of my graduates (they married when both were 
>seniors in my program) came back to visit and explained how her husband 
>had gotten great recognition in his company when he took over and 
>succeeded at a robotics project that a previous engineer had called 
>"Impossible." Her husband told her "It's exactly like the big project we 
>did in Krygowski's lab!"
>
>Of course a person must not stop learning upon graduation. But as the 
>wife of another graduate relayed to me, "My husband said 'Krygowski 
>taught us how to learn.'"
>
>I know there are engineering programs that study robotics more as 
>theoretical systems. We were purposely much more practical. The same 
>philosophy was at work in the rest of our curriculum.

Sorry, but I have very limited experience with robotics (CNC) and
can't really comment on robotics.

>I can't give as much detail about the other degrees and educations 
>earned by other family members and listed above. I won't compromise 
>their privacy, but I'll note that each of the people is professionally 
>successful in their field (even the poet) and could not have had that 
>success without their education.

True.  A diploma, a good education and relevant experience makes
success and higher earnings far more likely.
  
<https://www.umassglobal.edu/news-and-events/blog/how-college-impacts-salary-and-future-earning-potential>
"According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, bachelor’s degree holders earn
68% more than those with only a high school diploma."

"Earnings and Unemployment rates by educational attainment, 2023"
<https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2024/data-on-display/education-pays.htm>

>Again, I agree education is a tool. But a workman who attacks a job 
>without the necessary tool is likely to be damned inefficient.

Education can also be a weapon.  Education can be used for the general
good and for personal benefit.  However, it can also be used for evil
and personal detriment.  For example, I consider working on military
devices and weapons of mass destruction to be in the latter category.

Drivel:  I have a headache and need to stop writing.
-- 
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558