Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.
Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 06:54:22 +1000
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On 16/05/2025 12:11 am, john larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 2025 12:29:03 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-05-14 23:37, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 May 2025 21:10:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-05-14 19:19, john larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 22:28:23 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2025-05-13 18:14, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/05/2025 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 12:57:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nukes are great, but not if you tear them down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nukes are remarkably expensive, and depressingly inflexible. Radiation
>>>>>>> damage to the structure means that you do have to tear them down after a
>>>>>>> few decades of use, and the radioactive waste starts off very
>>>>>>> radioactive, and the longer-lived isotopes have to be managed for a few
>>>>>>> hundred thousand years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the investors building the stations do not consider the cost of
>>>>>> managing the waste for centuries. They leave that part to the
>>>>>> government. In Spain, we don't have any long term nuclear waste storage.
>>>>>> I think we rent storage in France, so the waste has to be transported
>>>>>> there. We have some storage at each station, a large water pool.
>>>>>
>>>>> The best thing to do with used fuel rods is reprocess them into more
>>>>> fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Something that is expensive and not every country can do.
>>>
>>> A couple of very remote places in the world could do that. And we'd
>>> get lots of fun isotopes too. Can't leave hot rods in a zillion pools
>>> forever.
>>
>> Transporting nuclear waste long distances is dangerous.
> 
> Not as dangerous as transporting gasoline or chlorine, and we do that
> all the time.

But neither has created the kind of mess that Chernobyl and Fukushima did.

>> Pools are a temporary solution till someone develops a permanent
>> solution. Nobody has, in decades.
> 
> Of course we have, but public fear keeps the things from happening.

Some of the public are better informed than you are, and less 
irrationally optimistic

>>>>> When that's not feasible, dig a deep hole and dump it in. Or drop
>>>>> barrels of junk into an ocean subduction zone.
>>>>
>>>> That's simply wrong.
> 
> Why?

You'll never know.

>>>>> It's irrational to store nuclear waste locally. Nuke policy is mostly
>>>>> fear driven. And nukes are unpopular in some quarters by people who
>>>>> really don't want us to have affordable, safe energy.
>>>>
>>>> I have a very rational and studied fear of nuclear power.
>>>
>>> Why?  It's very safe when done carefully.
>>
>> Everybody does it carefully, yet there are accidents with consequences.
>> Fukushima, Chernobyl, and many others. And close encounters or near misses.
> 
> The Fukushima and Chernobyl messes were caused by stupid design. Stop
> doing that.

Chernobyl was actually caused by stupid operation - the design wasn't 
wonderful, but it didn't create the problem.

Fukushima hadn't been designed to cope with a particular sort of 
tsunami. Any design that gets caught by an unexpected problem looks 
stupid after the event, but the unexpected is always with us.
> 
> A dam or a grain elevator or a parking garage will kill people if they
> are designed by idiots.

But they don't kill all that many people when they do fall down.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney