Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly
 met --- Mike's key mistake
Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 22:08:58 -0500
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On 5/16/2025 9:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/16/25 8:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/16/2025 7:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/16/25 6:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/2025 5:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/25 4:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2025 3:06 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 16.mei.2025 om 07:29 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> *Not at all. I am following these exact words*
>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its
>>>>>>>>      input D until H correctly determines that its simulated D
>>>>>>>>      would never stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Shows exactly how to implement those words to implement
>>>>>>>> a correct Simulating Termination Analyzer. Mike provides
>>>>>>>> a complete example of how this works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sipser agreed to a vacuous statement, because the condition 
>>>>>>> 'correctly simulates' was not met.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And by this you mean that when the spec requires
>>>>>> a partial simulation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *until H correctly determines that its simulated D*
>>>>>> *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You "interpret" this to mean that it must
>>>>>> infinitely simulate non-terminating inputs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which means, as I explained else, if H, after doing a partial 
>>>>> simulation, can determine that a COMPLETE simulation of this exact 
>>>>> input would be non-halting, it can abort.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not quite. One key detail is missing.
>>>> *H correctly determines that its simulated D*
>>>> *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>>>
>>>> Is referring to what the behavior of D would be
>>>> (in the hypothetical case) where this very same
>>>> H never aborted.
>>>
>>> Nope, since D must stay D, and D must be a fully encoded program and 
>>> thus doesn't change when you make the hypothetical H.
>>>
>>
>> *Click here to get the whole article*
>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1003cu5%242p3g1%241%40dont-email.me%3E
>>
>> Mike perfectly explains all of this with a concrete
>> example. In this case H determines that its infinite
>> loop input would never stop running unless aborted
>> so it aborts it and correctly rejects it.
>>
>> H is not being asked what is the behavior of this
>> infinite loop after H aborts it. It is being asked
>> what its behavior would be if H never aborted it.
>>
>> HHH is not being asked what is the behavior of
>> DDD after HHH aborts it. It is being asked
>> what its behavior would be if HHH never aborted it.
>>
>>
> 
> What makes you think I haven't.
> 

You haven't what?

> And, since DDD needs to be a PROGRAM to do any of this, as non-leaf 
> functions can't be correctly emulated, that DDD DOES include the code of 
> the HHH it was built for, which is the HHH that aborts and returns 0.
> 

It is the job of HHH to determine whether or not its
input *WOULD NEVER STOP RUNNING UNLESS ABORTED*

When you keep switching this back to
*WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DDD IS ABORTED*
You become a damned liar.

HHH and DDD and everything that HHH calls
*WOULD NEVER STOP RUNNING UNLESS DDD IS ABORTED*

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer