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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser
 agreed to are exactly met
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:32:43 -0500
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On 5/18/2025 2:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/18/25 1:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/18/2025 10:21 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 18/05/2025 10:09, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-05-17 17:15:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/17/2025 5:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-05-16 15:07:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/2025 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-15 23:43:27 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2025 6:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/25 4:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I overcome the proof of undecidability of the Halting
>>>>>>>>>>> Problem in that the code that
>>>>>>>>>>> "does the opposite of whatever value that HHH returns"
>>>>>>>>>>> becomes unreachable to DD correctly simulated by HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope, only to youtr INCORRECTLY simuated by HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other words you believe that professor Sipser
>>>>>>>>> screwed up when he agreed with these exact words.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its
>>>>>>>>>      input D until H correctly determines that its simulated D
>>>>>>>>>      would never stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One may indeed thik so. Or pehaps he knew what he was doing but 
>>>>>>>> cheated.
>>>>>>>> To sincerely agree with you without extreme care is an error.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>  > There is a natural (and correct) statement that Sipser
>>>>>>>  > is far more likely (I'd say) to have agreed to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is compatible with the idea that Sipser scewed up or cheated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  > First you should understand the basic idea behind a
>>>>>>>  > "Simulating Halt Decider" (*SHD*) that /partially/
>>>>>>>  > simulates its input, while observing each simulation
>>>>>>>  > step looking for certain halting/non-halting patterns
>>>>>>>  > in the simulation. A simple (working) example here
>>>>>>>  > is an input which goes into a tight loop.
>>>>>>> (Mike says much more about this)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Click here to get the whole article*
>>>>>>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>>>>>>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1003cu5%242p3g1%241%40dont-email.me%3E
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <1003cu5$2p3g1$1@dont-email.me>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There he explains an error in your claim to meet the requirements 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> Professor Sipser agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He also shows that your "In other words you believe that professor
>>>>>> Sipser screwed up when he agreed with these exact words" is not
>>>>>> supported by evidence (but that is quite obvious anyway).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *That is fully addressed in my reply to Mike*
>>>>> On 5/17/2025 10:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> [How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly
>>>>>   met --- Mike my best reviewer]
>>>>>
>>>>> Message-ID: <100aa5c$f19u$1@dont-email.me>
>>>>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>>>>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C100aa5c%24f19u%241%40dont-email.me%3E
>>>>
>>>> That page does not show all of the message.
>>>>
>>>> You say there:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike's reviews of my work are at least ten-fold better
>>>>> than the next best reviewer. Mike is one of the few
>>>>> people here that really wants an honest dialogue. He
>>>>> carefully examined my code and has a nearly perfect
>>>>> understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Mike and I agree about everything essential in these discussion, and
>>>> I havn't noticed any disagreement is the less essential.
>>>>
>>>> Your statement "Mike is one of the few people here that really wants
>>>> an honest dialogue" is far from true. Some peole may have a stronger
>>>> desire to keep the discussion honest but there are not many who have
>>>> any reason to want any dishonest discussion. Of course everyone's
>>>> ability to keep the discussion honest is restricted to ones own
>>>> contributions.
>>>>
>>>> You also say:
>>>>
>>>>> HHH(DDD) does not base its decision on the actual
>>>>> behavior of DDD after it has aborted its simulation
>>>>> of DDD, instead it bases its decision on a different
>>>>> HHH/DDD pair that never aborts.
>>>>
>>>> This is why HHH does not satisfy "H correctly determines that its
>>>> simulated D would never stop running unless aborted". If HHH bases
>>>> its decision on anything else than what its actual input actually
>>>> specifies it does not decide correctly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right.  It seems to be a recent innovation in PO's wording that he 
>>> has started using the phrase "..bases its decision on a different 
>>> *HHH/DDD pair* ..".
>>>
>>
>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> we can easily interpret that as saying exactly what I said a SHD does 
>> above. It tells PO that in the tight loop example, H correctly 
>> simulates as far as [A], at which point it correctly determines that 
>> "its simulated input would never stop running unless aborted", so it 
>> can decide "non-halting".
>>
>> Thus SHD must report on a different SHD/Infinite_Loop pair
>> where this hypothetical instance of itself never aborts.
>>
>> If H always reports on the behavior of its simulated
>> input after it aborts then every input including
>> infinite_loop would be determined to be halting.
>>
>> Instead H must report on the hypothetical H/D input
>> pair where the very same H has been made to not abort
>> its input.
>>
>> void DDD()
>> {
>>    HHH(DDD);
>>    return;
>> }
>>
>> _DDD()
>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>> [00002183] c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>
>> *H correctly determines that its simulated D*
>> *would never stop running unless aborted*
>> by a hypothetical instance of itself that never aborts.
>>
>> Unless HHH aborts its simulation of DDD then
>> (a) The simulated DDD
>> (b) The executed HHH()
>> (c) The executed DDD()
>> (d) Every function that HHH calls
>> NEVER STOP RUNNING
>>
>>
>>
> 
> The first problem is your DDD is just a category error, and NOTHING 
> (correct) can simulate this DDD past the call the HHH as that code isn't 
> in the input.
> 

I have corrected you on this too many times.
HHH and DDD are in the same memory space.
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