Deutsch   English   Français   Italiano  
<100dfc8$15qbo$1@dont-email.me>

View for Bookmarking (what is this?)
Look up another Usenet article

Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Mike Terry Proves --- How the requirements that Professor Sipser
 agreed to are exactly met
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 15:19:19 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 230
Message-ID: <100dfc8$15qbo$1@dont-email.me>
References: <1005jsk$3akrk$1@dont-email.me>
 <bc6f0f045212bdfb7f7d883426873a09e37789ea@i2pn2.org>
 <1005u6v$3cpt2$1@dont-email.me> <1006oi9$3l93f$1@dont-email.me>
 <1007kan$3qb7l$8@dont-email.me> <1009n2d$b9ol$1@dont-email.me>
 <100ag73$g1r8$1@dont-email.me> <100c83u$tspg$1@dont-email.me>
 <100ctuc$121rs$1@dont-email.me> <100d5b7$13m1e$1@dont-email.me>
 <221167c1bbedbbda1934b12f6b2c72de2c3a1f78@i2pn2.org>
 <100dckr$1586e$1@dont-email.me>
 <c5c825970bebea6bd8bfde7077f7ffc5ba0c30f5@i2pn2.org>
 <100dedr$15dil$3@dont-email.me>
 <771e0f3f36c9914146f675bc9e2c1c0e7903c116@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 22:19:20 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="b5c72f95c645dee2c161954842d261f0";
	logging-data="1239416"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/3beKy+gpa8w3e45IlPjm2"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:RkzYFIjW5kUUrsa8gMVP1Ga7c6M=
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250518-4, 5/18/2025), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <771e0f3f36c9914146f675bc9e2c1c0e7903c116@i2pn2.org>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean

On 5/18/2025 3:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/18/25 4:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/18/2025 2:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/18/25 3:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2025 2:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/25 1:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/18/2025 10:21 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/05/2025 10:09, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-17 17:15:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2025 5:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-16 15:07:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2025 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-15 23:43:27 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2025 6:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/25 4:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I overcome the proof of undecidability of the Halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem in that the code that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "does the opposite of whatever value that HHH returns"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> becomes unreachable to DD correctly simulated by HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, only to youtr INCORRECTLY simuated by HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words you believe that professor Sipser
>>>>>>>>>>>>> screwed up when he agreed with these exact words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      input D until H correctly determines that its simulated D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      would never stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One may indeed thik so. Or pehaps he knew what he was doing 
>>>>>>>>>>>> but cheated.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To sincerely agree with you without extreme care is an error.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>  > There is a natural (and correct) statement that Sipser
>>>>>>>>>>>  > is far more likely (I'd say) to have agreed to.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is compatible with the idea that Sipser scewed up or 
>>>>>>>>>> cheated.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  > First you should understand the basic idea behind a
>>>>>>>>>>>  > "Simulating Halt Decider" (*SHD*) that /partially/
>>>>>>>>>>>  > simulates its input, while observing each simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>  > step looking for certain halting/non-halting patterns
>>>>>>>>>>>  > in the simulation. A simple (working) example here
>>>>>>>>>>>  > is an input which goes into a tight loop.
>>>>>>>>>>> (Mike says much more about this)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Click here to get the whole article*
>>>>>>>>>>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>>>>>>>>>>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1003cu5%242p3g1%241%40dont-email.me%3E
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <1003cu5$2p3g1$1@dont-email.me>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There he explains an error in your claim to meet the 
>>>>>>>>>> requirements that
>>>>>>>>>> Professor Sipser agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He also shows that your "In other words you believe that 
>>>>>>>>>> professor
>>>>>>>>>> Sipser screwed up when he agreed with these exact words" is not
>>>>>>>>>> supported by evidence (but that is quite obvious anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *That is fully addressed in my reply to Mike*
>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2025 10:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> [How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly
>>>>>>>>>   met --- Mike my best reviewer]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <100aa5c$f19u$1@dont-email.me>
>>>>>>>>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>>>>>>>>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C100aa5c%24f19u%241%40dont-email.me%3E
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That page does not show all of the message.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You say there:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike's reviews of my work are at least ten-fold better
>>>>>>>>> than the next best reviewer. Mike is one of the few
>>>>>>>>> people here that really wants an honest dialogue. He
>>>>>>>>> carefully examined my code and has a nearly perfect
>>>>>>>>> understanding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike and I agree about everything essential in these discussion, 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I havn't noticed any disagreement is the less essential.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your statement "Mike is one of the few people here that really 
>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>>> an honest dialogue" is far from true. Some peole may have a 
>>>>>>>> stronger
>>>>>>>> desire to keep the discussion honest but there are not many who 
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> any reason to want any dishonest discussion. Of course everyone's
>>>>>>>> ability to keep the discussion honest is restricted to ones own
>>>>>>>> contributions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You also say:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) does not base its decision on the actual
>>>>>>>>> behavior of DDD after it has aborted its simulation
>>>>>>>>> of DDD, instead it bases its decision on a different
>>>>>>>>> HHH/DDD pair that never aborts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is why HHH does not satisfy "H correctly determines that its
>>>>>>>> simulated D would never stop running unless aborted". If HHH bases
>>>>>>>> its decision on anything else than what its actual input actually
>>>>>>>> specifies it does not decide correctly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right.  It seems to be a recent innovation in PO's wording that 
>>>>>>> he has started using the phrase "..bases its decision on a 
>>>>>>> different *HHH/DDD pair* ..".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>> we can easily interpret that as saying exactly what I said a SHD 
>>>>>> does above. It tells PO that in the tight loop example, H 
>>>>>> correctly simulates as far as [A], at which point it correctly 
>>>>>> determines that "its simulated input would never stop running 
>>>>>> unless aborted", so it can decide "non-halting".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus SHD must report on a different SHD/Infinite_Loop pair
>>>>>> where this hypothetical instance of itself never aborts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If H always reports on the behavior of its simulated
>>>>>> input after it aborts then every input including
>>>>>> infinite_loop would be determined to be halting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead H must report on the hypothetical H/D input
>>>>>> pair where the very same H has been made to not abort
>>>>>> its input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *H correctly determines that its simulated D*
>>>>>> *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>>>>> by a hypothetical instance of itself that never aborts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless HHH aborts its simulation of DDD then
>>>>>> (a) The simulated DDD
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========